Best denoiser for MM high ISOs?

[jpk]

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Hi!

 

I am seraching for the best denoise software for DNGs with high ISO (6400-10000) from my Monochrom.

 

I tried the inbuilt Lightroom denoiser and also Topaz denoise, but I don't get satisfying results. Either it looks to artificial (along with a dramatic loss of details) or there are too much white speckles in dark areas left over...

 

Please share your experiences!

[rickp13]

have you tried the denoise plug-in from NIK?

greetings

rick

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[sanyasi]

To some extent, I think you are assuming you can do more with those files than you can. I shoot with an MM, sometimes in clubs. I know it has high ISO, but get above 3200 and the files break down to my eyes. I am always reluctant to use noise reduction and minimize my use of it. It softens the photograph. I have never used a photo that has gone above 3200.

 

I have not doubt that others will chime in, claiming that they get unbelievable results above 3200. If it works for them fine, but not for me.

 

Having said that, I process with Silver Efex and the NIK noise reduction program. I generally get great results at lower ISOs, but I never push the noise reduction that hard. In my experience, you are better thinking in terms of darker blacks and shadows to hide the noise.

[terrycym]

Give Prime a try in the latest version of DXO Optics Pro.

You can download a demo

[Luke_Miller]

I think that tolerance of digital noise tends to vary significantly with the individual. I hate it in color images, but find it much less bothersome in my MM shots. Yes it looks a bit like film grain - but I don't care for that much either . To my eye a properly exposed MM shot looks fine up to ISO 6400. At the Lightroom (or ACR) default of 25 Sharpening it has noise (the white speckles) in it, but primarily when viewing at 100%. When I view at 50% the noise becomes hard to see, even with no noise reduction applied. I find that a 50% view is much more representative of any use I may have for an MM image.

 

If one boosts exposure during processing (effectively increasing ISO), lightens the shadows, or uses higher amounts of sharpening, then the visible noise increases dramatically. When I need to use noise reduction I find the tools in Lightroom, ACR, or Capture One are generally up to the task.

[jaapv]

I must admit that I do not see a reason to denoise high ISO MM images, just as I see no reason to degrain TriX.

[jpk]

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have you tried the denoise plug-in from NIK?

 

Thank you, this advice was very helpful - I found that Dfine gives nicer results than the other tools I tried!

 

Give Prime a try in the latest version of DXO Optics Pro.

You can download a demo

 

I did not manage to use Prime on the DNGs of my MM. Prime seems to support only non-DNG RAWs, at least on my installation...

 

I must admit that I do not see a reason to denoise high ISO MM images, just as I see no reason to degrain TriX.

 

That's what I thought until now ;-) But what about files from ISO 5000 and higher...?

[paulsydaus]

I also own Dfine2 from Nik.

It does a good job with film grain and luminance noise, but in terms of digital there are many programs out there and I'm not sure if Nik is the best. As others have said, I'd look at the offerings from DXO. Noise Ninja (now Photo Ninja) from PictureCode is also worth a look...

[terrycym]

 

I did not manage to use Prime on the DNGs of my MM. Prime seems to support only non-DNG RAWs, at least on my installation...

 

Prime works fine for me on my DNGs. I have v9.5 of DXO DOP

[250swb]

Dfine2 works for me generally for colour, but I prefer the noise the MM produces above anything any noise reduction software can get rid of.

 

Steve

[jpk]

Prime works fine for me on my DNGs. I have v9.5 of DXO DOP

 

I just tried again: DxO latest Version (64bit Demo on Windows 7) does not open DNGs of my Monochrom even if converted to DNG by Lightroom.

 

Converted in Lightroom to TIFs they open in DxO, but Prime is disabled (greyed out).

 

What can I do?

[terrycym]

I have a ME (which is treated the same as an M9)

It works fine with that.

Thinking about it, the M9 appears in their list of modules from the menu, so I presume the MM does mot appear in the list?

From memory, I believe the M (240) is in the list too.

So, for Prime to work, you need to be working on RAW images (original DNG's if good) but the camera needs to be in the list of supported modules.

Prime only works if DXO have characterised the camera body, it's not necessary for the lens to be in their list of modules, just so long as the body appears.

Sorry for the confusion.

You could always send DXO a request to add support for the MM?

If they get enough requests they wll do it I find.

[jpk]

I have a ME (which is treated the same as an M9)

It works fine with that.

Thinking about it, the M9 appears in their list of modules from the menu, so I presume the MM does mot appear in the list?

From memory, I believe the M (240) is in the list too.

So, for Prime to work, you need to be working on RAW images (original DNG's if good) but the camera needs to be in the list of supported modules.

Prime only works if DXO have characterised the camera body, it's not necessary for the lens to be in their list of modules, just so long as the body appears.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

Thanks for clarification! My experience is that denoise is very different on the MM than on color/bayer cameras...

[terrycym]

And that's why DXO doesn't do a generic noise reduction, it does it based on the camera body profile

I'm at home now and just checked, the only Leica bodies they cover at the moment is M9, M & X Vario

[jpk]

OK, I made some "real" tests: prints! Result: the white speckles which look awful on the screen do not appear on the prints. Denoising makes things even worse! A print of a heavy cropped 10.000 ISO shot still looks fine in A4, much less noise than the beloved Kodak T-Max 3200... So, I will skip on denoising with files from the MM

 

Cheers!

[jaapv]

 

That's what I thought until now ;-) But what about files from ISO 5000 and higher...?

 

I see no problematic noise when printing, although they look pretty speckled on a screen. What I do see is that the image quality gets destroyed by denoising manipulations, depending as they do on blurring and sharpening algorithms.

Those two happen to be the ones that MM files are most sensitive to in post processing, together with the clarity slider and the shadows/highlights module, both of which are closely related to sharpening.

[jpk]

I see no problematic noise when printing, although they look pretty speckled on a screen. What I do see is that the image quality gets destroyed by denoising manipulations, depending as they do on blurring and sharpening algorithms. Those two happen to be the ones that MM files are most sensitive to in post processing, together with the clarity slider and the shadows/highlights module, both of which are closely related to sharpening.

 

Interesting! I use the clarity, highlight and shadow sliders in Lightroom on MM DNGs regularly and do not find the results destroyed. I even thought that MM files can take much more of these sliders than color files without looking artificial.

 

Could you please point me to some samples of "wrong" usage of clarity etc. settings?

[hoppyman]

Referring to the initial question, can you describe the slider adjustment settings that you tried in Lightroom (and which version do you have?)

 

For what purpose (output) are you doing the noise reduction? (printing, web/resolution etc)

Are you previewing the effects at 100%?

Were you aware that you can apply noise reduction locally if appropriate (as with any adjustment used via brush)?

 

 

The sharpening and noise reduction modules are inter-related and for example the masking setting has a profound effect.

Check your sharpening settings first too. You may be magnifying the noise before then trying to reduce it/

Neat Image is the external program that I used previously. It can be employed as a stand-alone or as a plug-in for Photshop

[jpk]

Referring to the initial question, can you describe the slider adjustment settings that you tried in Lightroom (and which version do you have?)

 

Latest version of Lightroom, sharpening off, denoise maximum of 25 at ISO 10000, clarity if any a maximum of 10. The sliders of blackpoint and highlight recovery I try to adjust only very slightly.

 

Are you previewing the effects at 100%?

 

Yes, but also at full screen with fit-in and at 50%.

 

Were you aware that you can apply noise reduction locally if appropriate (as with any adjustment used via brush)?

 

Yes!

 

For what purpose (output) are you doing the noise reduction? (printing, web/resolution etc)

 

Printing in various sizes, often around A4. For web I don't care to make extra versions, I just export them. For prints up to A3 I found that noise reduction of 20 at ISO 10000 gives fine results, I even could live without any NR up to ISO 3200. But until now I did not print ultra high ISOs because I did not like the white speckles - now I found that these look much worse on screen than on paper

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[erudolph]

Give Prime a try in the latest version of DXO Optics Pro.

You can download a demo

 

I thought that DXO Optics Pro does not recognize the raw files produced by the MM?

 

Edit: Oh, I see, already answered later in the thread, For what it's worth, I've made several requests to DXO for them to support MM bodies, to no avail. Also, I notice, that if a camera raw file such as .ARW is converted to a LightRoom DNG, DXO no longer recognizes it. Sorry for the topic drift.

Edited August 15, 2014 by erudolph