Leica M8

[crow]

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I am thinking of buying an M8 over a Ricoh GXR A12 M, cause of the b&w capability.

However when someone is buying digital, he's getting into a world he doesn't control 100%.

Pictures are OK when on the internet-computer. But when it comes to printing...things become difficult. I am learning to develop 35mm film. So far I am doing film developing. I need to learn how to print this. Color will be slides option only. Even though I haven't experienced printing yet, I know I will have some degree of control in the beginning getting better as time will go by. But digital:

what printer, whose printer, what calibration between my 32 bit macbook and printer, I don't want no photoshop, lightroom is as far as I will go 1000%. Only have an HP A4, photosmart cheap printer. Perhaps a used A3 size later on.

However many posts on the subject I haven't had any one being absolutely in total control, closer to the analog quality of shooting film, yet with out those artsy-fartsi photoshop tricks which make images look kitschier than all of the sunday paintings hung on the walls of all of all houses in EU.

So, what's the way then? Without any photoshop waste!

[Loren]

I am thinking of buying an M8 over a Ricoh GXR A12 M, cause of the b&w capability.

However when someone is buying digital, he's getting into a world he doesn't control 100%.

Pictures are OK when on the internet-computer. But when it comes to printing...things become difficult. I am learning to develop 35mm film. So far I am doing film developing. I need to learn how to print this. Color will be slides option only. Even though I haven't experienced printing yet, I know I will have some degree of control in the beginning getting better as time will go by. But digital:

what printer, whose printer, what calibration between my 32 bit macbook and printer, I don't want no photoshop, lightroom is as far as I will go 1000%. Only have an HP A4, photosmart cheap printer. Perhaps a used A3 size later on.

However many posts on the subject I haven't had any one being absolutely in total control, closer to the analog quality of shooting film, yet with out those artsy-fartsi photoshop tricks which make images look kitschier than all of the sunday paintings hung on the walls of all of all houses in EU.

So, what's the way then? Without any photoshop waste!

 

If you are fussy, limber up your wallet.

 

First, to get accurate colors requires a wide-gamut display monitor. That will address some of the calibration issues that are inherent with a standard monitor.

 

Despite what many will tell you, calibrating a standard monitor will not yield true colorspace. Calibration of a standard monitor is a lengthly discussion and I don't have time for all of it. The long and short of it is, calibration only adjusts the software color palette on the PC and all Macs still only have 8-bits per color (RGB) channel. So, adjusting the palette is simply shifting values one direction or another, which will thin out the dynamic range in some regions of the palette.

 

The only real solution is to buy a wide-gamut monitor so you can actually see what the printer will produce. Some of those actually have hardware calibration tools, which is far better than the software calibration tools you buy like Spyder4, etc.

 

Wide-gamut displays a colorspace that is slightly larger than AdobeRGB, but is a little less in the greens.

 

The whole thing is, if you can't see it, you can't adjust it. That is why a standard monitor and you color printer output two different things.

 

 

Printers are another subject. I use a Cannon Pro9000 Mark II. There are better printers out there and everyone will be glad to give you their opinion, which may be better than mine.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Loren

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[crow]

"Printers are another subject..."

This is exactly what I am talking about. It shouldn't be. And so shouldn't the camera.

We should be progressing. Camera. screen, printer, and paper should all work as one.

Perhaps my lack of experience works as a way of looking at things more purely, being able to target what seems so difficult to do once deeply involved in the Digital Field.

Could it be that the companies aren't interested in a fast jump that would unify all these problems, solving them, simply because there's money to loose?

[Loren]

"Printers are another subject..."

This is exactly what I am talking about. It shouldn't be. And so shouldn't the camera.

We should be progressing. Camera. screen, printer, and paper should all work as one.

Perhaps my lack of experience works as a way of looking at things more purely, being able to target what seems so difficult to do once deeply involved in the Digital Field.

Could it be that the companies aren't interested in a fast jump that would unify all these problems, solving them, simply because there's money to loose?

 

The issue is that monitors were developed for the larger market and that market does not print photos.

 

Pros and advanced amateurs simply make up a tiny segment of the display market, so you can't expect them to spend extra money to please 1% of the market.

 

Printers are less of a problem - at least the ones designed to print on photo paper. You can search for reviews yourself, but there is little talk about what you see on the display, which is the place where the digital darkroom starts.

[crow]

Ricoh GXR is good in colors. M8 is better in b&w.

Is it the same with monitors? Wide gamut monitors are at the same time good in color and b&w?

[wda]

Ricoh GXR is good in colors. M8 is better in b&w.

Is it the same with monitors? Wide gamut monitors are at the same time good in color and b&w?

I get excellent colour from my M8. But I do use an X-Rite ColorChecker and routinely recalibrate my Eizo graphics monitor. For my limited number of quality enlargements I use a local printer whose machine recognises my embedded colour profile. The results are superb. So I cannot agree that the M8 is deficient in colour. I do agree that the M8 is capable of excellent monochrome photography. I also use mine, occasionally, for IR photography. So it is a very versatile camera.

[crow]

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I didn't say the M8 is deficient of color. I just said that the Ricoh is excellent in color and that it can compete the M8 in that section, unlike b&w where the M8 seems to do better. This of course is coming from internet search, so it isn't my conclusion. My own idea comes form the internet b&w pictures I saw on the screen, and the M8 has a richer b&w tonal variation than the Ricoh. It could be that this goes for the prints as well. However the gap between my camera, my screen/macbook, and the printer/print seems unequivocal, and a challenge along with darkroom printing. So not only do I not think the M8 is a fine camera buy it is desirable too.

[jip]

The M8 gives good colour, maybe not as true to real life as other camera's... but hey... if you use colour film it's never close to real life... in that sense the M8 comes closer to real life colours than most 35mm films will ever achieve... When you get whitebalance right etc.

[crow]

I am not going to get into a conversation about color processing.

It is like fresco, few people know how to do it.

I can't do it, but I think if someone from the forum did, then doing it to look CLOSE to real wouldn't be a problem. Don't get into a conversation is too big. Being a painter and having been traditionally trained I know what color is and what it does, so this is why I won't get into discussing color photography. "Real" does not mean one thing. Color is relative. If you do your homework, and your eyes are able to distinguish between hues, then comes the technique. The M8 in one of its modes, and I am not aware how many it has, seems to deal with color together with the use of light and dark contrasts, Ricoh, in the mode I've seen on the internet again, uses color contrasts and less chiaroscuro.

Edited July 12, 2014 by crow

[crow]

I get the feeling darkroom processing whether b&w or color is superior to digital.

However we live in a digital age, we've become accustomed to it.

I think color is easier when digital, cause I don't know darkroom color process.

And when Leica and Olympus, which I am fond of, follow, we follow, without thinking.

Another Ricoh attribute is being able to accommodate Other Lenses through screen focusing, where as the M8 would have to scale focus.

Am I right? There is also the option of using a visoflex and an OM to M adaptor.

WHich visoflex, I, II, or III will fit an M8?

Edited July 12, 2014 by crow

[jip]

Visoflex 2 and 3 are confirmed working with the M8, I've used it a few times on M8 and M9. I prefer the Visoflex 3

[Loren]

Ricoh GXR is good in colors. M8 is better in b&w.

Is it the same with monitors? Wide gamut monitors are at the same time good in color and b&w?

 

The whole point is what you see on your monitor is what you get when you print.

 

If the monitor is not representative of what the final product looks like on your printer, it doesn't matter what camera you use, the results will be a disappointment because what the printer delivers doesn't match what you adjusted in lightroom

 

Whether the picture is black & white or color, the monitor just needs to be representative of the printer's color space. Otherwise you end up printing a sample, looking at it, and guesiing what changes to make to get the next print closer to what you actually want.

[crow]

OK, so what's the recipe?

I know number 1 now, buying a used wide gamut screen.

Number 2 see if I can get a, used again, A3 printer that can bring what's shown on screen.

Calibration is done through the macbook, isn't? So I usb the wg screen onto the 32bit macbook, continue to calibrate till I get somewhat satisfying results.

Wright?

As far as Visoflex II+OM to M adapter, doesn't it get the OM glass further away from the sensor, degrading quality? For example if I used a OM to M on the Leica M body the lens would move about 3-4cm away form the body. If I use the adaptor on the Visoflex we're talking about another 2-3cm away, total 6-7cm. Isn't this degradation? Why use OM lenses on a Leica ? How about 24mm shift Zuiko for building shots! Then again, if the building is far away, focus can be set to infinity so I don't need to confirm ti through the finder.

Edited July 13, 2014 by crow

[Loren]

OK, so what's the recipe?

I know number 1 now, buying a used wide gamut screen.

Number 2 see if I can get a, used again, A3 printer that can bring what's shown on screen.

Calibration is done through the macbook, isn't? So I usb the wg screen onto the 32bit macbook, continue to calibrate till I get somewhat satisfying results.

Wright?

As far as Visoflex II+OM to M adapter, doesn't it get the OM glass further away from the sensor, degrading quality? For example if I used a OM to M on the Leica M body the lens would move about 3-4cm away form the body. If I use the adaptor on the Visoflex we're talking about another 2-3cm away, total 6-7cm. Isn't this degradation? Why use OM lenses on a Leica ? How about 24mm shift Zuiko for building shots! Then again, if the building is far away, focus can be set to infinity so I don't need to confirm ti through the finder.

 

Here is what I would do.

 

Start with what you have. First, you probably will need to upgrade the printer, so find one that you like and get that.

 

Start by using Lightroom to get a picture that you like the way it renders on the screen, then print it with the printer. This will show you how far the calibration is off and whether you can live with it.

 

You may find that for B&W it is workable.

 

As you progress with your Lightroom skills you will probably want to make the next leap and look for a wide-gamut screen to better match the printer output.

 

The new display will be the most costly expense, so I would not rush into a purchase and give yourself time to research your purchases carefully.

[crow]

Already there.

Prints in color come out one and a half steps darker than on the screen.

When I calibrate the macbook screen everything seems OK.

Imagine the screen on the macbook is tilted at about 120 degrees, looks darker as it moves further away from the perpendicular position. 120 aprox. is as far back as it goes; prints come out a tad darker as screen looks at 120 degrees from the typing pad to the screen.

I am talking "darker" because its been so different that I haven't paid any attention to the hues, without remembering they may be a tad more violet, so an ultramarine blue would come out as ultramarine with a violetish hue, slightly more magenta than on the screen.

However light and dark first, then hues.

[crow]

What's the deal with the electronics on the M8?

BUGS inside the circuits; do they expand, do they go away via new firmware?

On the other hand how come they still appear in 2014, when there have been so many upgrades since then?

There is someone selling his M8 after it had been repaired, had a cercuite board replaced.

Costed 250 gbp, or around there. Is it safe buying a serviced one?

How about one with the bug currently present?

Sorry, too many subjects on this thread but there are so many issues regarding this camera,

they all have one thing in common, the M8!

[jip]

Don't worry about all that stuff it's a old camera and if you go online you only read the bad things... I've had a few M8's and none of them broke down on me. Lovely camera still today.

[crow]

I particularly like its b&w looks.

Tell me, it doesn't have live view,

so focusing with non Leica lenses leaves you scale focusing, guessing, right?

It's a Leica lens camera. I've got a couple of LTM's and nice Summicron C 40, Elmar C 90,

and a Telel Elmarit 90/2.8, all of them good lenses to use with it.

 

I have to let the Elmar C 90 and the Leica CL go.

Got an M5 and enjoy shooting film a lot.

 

But I am also an Olympus fan. Other stuff there, architecture, Tele shots, wide angle shots, great really.

And the E-P1 is their meeting point. I have to admit, the 24mm shift lens on an M8 is a crazy idea.

I enjoy talking about it though!

[Everywhen]

You will end up spending just as much on darkroom wet chemical stuff as you would on a wide-gamut monitor and a decent A3+ printer. But in the make far more mess and smell of stop bath.

 

I find the M8 produces B+W images that require very little in the way of processing providing you get the exposure correct in camera.

 

The advice posted earlier to buy what you need as you progress is sensible.

 

As you said yourself, we live in a digital world, I messed around for years with film (no choice digital didn't exist) but could never quite get the prints I wanted. Once I went digital I was able to realise the images I saw in my head.

 

IMO there is a lot of sentimentality attached to film and darkroom, commonally by those too young to have actually done it, my advice is to stay in the 21st century and learn to photograph and print to the best of your ability in the digital medium, it will pay dividends in the end.

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[crow]

Well, good news is I already have what I need for the darkroom.

Yes, the fixer smells more than the Caffenol Developer, but I' m beginning to find ways to make it less smelly, like opening the windows while handling the tank. I even got a new Nikon IV scanner. I haven't learned to print yet, but I will, the same way I did developing the

35mm film. And an Apo Rodenstock 50/2.8 for excellent enlargements, and a cheap Tessar I don't know what the heck of a mount it has, actually it looks as it doesn't have one(if you think you know have a look at the picture and let me know). Are you kidding? It took me such a long time to ebay my darkroom equipment and learn how to use them! Darkroom stays and becomes even more important. However I see the M8 b&w images as a challenge and as the photography instructor I didn't have at the Art Institute, being preoccupied with painting all the time. Time pays back though.

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Edited July 14, 2014 by crow