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Old 20/02/12, 18:02   #1 (permalink)
DES
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Default The use of profiles etc.

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I am starting to get into printing my own photographs now, but I am having difficulty getting the results I am after, ie. getting colours printed similar to my screen images.

I know their are many different settings that I could use,and taking it that I have the correct /calibrated profiles for paper,from your experience, can you provide a basic guide to settings that you find work for you with...

Thre Monitor...Do I use RGB, ProPhoto etc.
In Photoshop.....What settings would you recommend etc.
The Printer....I have set to use photoshop settings.

The soft proof colours that I seem to get pre printing, show the most horrific colours, so what am I doing wrong?

I know this is compex but I seem to be having "setting" problems that look ok to me!
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Old 20/02/12, 20:45   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

For the monitor you're probably best selecting SRGB, or profiling the monitor with a profiling 'puck'.

In Photoshop I use Prophoto.

For the printing you need to select a profile associated with the paper you're using.
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Old 20/02/12, 22:08   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

Five points:

First, the folks at Image Print advised against using ProPhoto. They suggested AdobeRGB was the way to output files for printing. They indicated that most printers could not handle the wide gamut of ProPhoto. I would not use sRGB, which should only be used for photographs that will be viewed on the web.

Second, again the ImagePrint folks pointed this out, many printer calibration problems are do to the brightness being set to high. Do some tests dropping the brightness target in the profile 5 to 10 points at a time. If your monitor is too bright, your prints will most likely be too dark for the simple reason that when you think you have it just right on the screen, the printer is going to undershoot in terms of brightness. I would also begin by using the other recommended monitor default settings when calibrating.

Third, experiment with the Relative and Perceptual rendering intents. These can make a difference, particularly if you are printing on papers that use matte black inks. This is a color gamut issue. Softproofing can be helpful here.

Fourth, I am not suggesting you must make the investment to get great prints, but the ImagePrint software has been impressive in terms of the consistency of the profiles. I have printed the same photograph on paper made by three different manufacturers and I am unable to see any difference in the colors, contrast, or any other aspect of the print. Of course, if you print on a matte vs glossy surface, the paper will look and reflect differently, but the colors and contrast are the same in my experience.

Having said that, ImagePrint has some weaknesses worth noting. They are too willing to rest on the quality of their profiles. The interface is badly designed. The software needs better alignment tools. And when the print cue backs up, you often have to shut down the printer and the computer to clear a job that is stuck in it. That is just plain sloppy.

Fifth. Once you get yourself calibrated, never change anything. Calibration is a frustrating and time consuming issue. I sympathize. Unfortunately, the passage of time will require that you recalibrate on occasion.

Hope that helps.

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Old 20/02/12, 22:16   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

Jack, the OP is complaining about 'horrendous colours' which suggests to me that he is using something like Prophoto or Adobe as the profile for the printer rather than a paper profile. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think there's something more basically wrong than not using a fully calibrated way of working.
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Old 20/02/12, 23:24   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

Thanks for pointing that out. To the OP, you need profiles for the monitor and profiles for the paper. Most of my post was focused on the monitor, although they relate to the paper. Nevertheless, you will need to obtain ICC profiles from the paper manufacturer and install them on your system. If you haven't done that before, no big deal. The manufacturers all provide profiles for download. They are dependent on your printer manufacturer and model. The manufacturers usually include installation instructions, which is basically telling you where to put the profile on your system.

Then when you print, you need to select the setting that overrides your printer's color management. Instead, you link to the manufacturer's profile. In the Lightroom Print Module, elect Color Management and then select the profile (which you installed) rather than Managed by Printer. Under Printer Settings (Lightroom Print Module) pull up your printer's driver and turn off Color Management or equivalent setting.

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Old 21/02/12, 15:58   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

Sorry bout that Andy.
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Old 21/02/12, 16:27   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

Now I am really confused. Who "are the folks at Image Print"?
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Old 21/02/12, 16:50   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

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Now I am really confused. Who "are the folks at Image Print"?
They are a company that make an RIP - think of it as similar to a printer driver that will produce outstanding results. Details here...

Make Better Prints - ImagePrint

Expensive though, $900 for an average sized printer.
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Old 21/02/12, 17:11   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

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Originally Posted by stunsworth View Post
For the monitor you're probably best selecting SRGB, or profiling the monitor with a profiling 'puck'.

In Photoshop I use Prophoto.

For the printing you need to select a profile associated with the paper you're using.
I agree. However some high-end monitors do accept Adobe RGB nowadays. In that case it is useful to run everything in Adobe RGB. But, bearing in mind many people and webbrowsers will only accept sRGB, you need to drop down to that for electronic publishing. Most pro printing services - which I prefer, as I cannot get the same result without vast investments in time and printers, accept all color spaces.
One other thing - use 16-bits files in Photoshop.
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Old 21/02/12, 17:34   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

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I agree. However some high-end monitors do accept Adobe RGB nowadays. In that case it is useful to run everything in Adobe RGB...
I've never used one, so could be talking rubbish, but doesn't that just mean they are capable of displaying the full range of colours that Adobe RGB allows? I.e. for _accurate_ colours they'll still need to be calibrated and used with a profile generated for an individual monitor.

Apologies if I've got that one wrong.
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Old 21/02/12, 18:16   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

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Yes, my Eizos for instance render 98% of Adobe RGB, and come with hardware color calibration, I use the Colorspyder. You can really see the difference when dropping down to sRGB. The advantage is that one avoids colour errors that may occur when editing in a wider colorspace than the monitor can render.
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Old 22/02/12, 00:46   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

Thanks to you all for your help, but I have got good results using the Epson standard profile so I tried using a hahnemühle paper profile I downloaded to see what this was like. The soft proof showed far too bright red and the grass far too bright green? If I have all settings correct can I alter the colour to make things right while I view the soft proof? Or is there a better way. You can see I am lost
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Old 22/02/12, 01:57   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DES View Post
Thanks to you all for your help, but I have got good results using the Epson standard profile so I tried using a hahnemühle paper profile I downloaded to see what this was like. The soft proof showed far too bright red and the grass far too bright green? If I have all settings correct can I alter the colour to make things right while I view the soft proof? Or is there a better way. You can see I am lost
It sounds like you are on the right track. You have simply got to get the paper/printer profile right or it will print mush and horrific colors no matter what you see on the monitor. Can I ask what printer, monitor and paper you are using? Also, it sourness like you're doing this, but make sure you have PS managing colors and your printer color management off.

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Old 22/02/12, 02:06   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

kdriceman..Thanks for that. My monitor is the Eizo CG275W the printer is Epson R2000.
I have set photoshop to manage colours. yet when I try the correct profiles for any of the Hahnemuhle papers and somew epson ones I get whacky colours? the SPR200 Standard seems the best so far, but I am getting bogged down with settings
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Old 22/02/12, 02:25   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

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kdriceman..Thanks for that. My monitor is the Eizo CG275W the printer is Epson R2000.
I have set photoshop to manage colours. yet when I try the correct profiles for any of the Hahnemuhle papers and somew epson ones I get whacky colours? the SPR200 Standard seems the best so far, but I am getting bogged down with settings
Well, that is a VERY sporting monitor and since it seems to have built in calibration we can probably assume it is at least close to accurate on color. And it probably handles the Adobe RGB gamut. Have you tried adjusting monitor brightness and contrast to the extremes just to see if that helps?

Also, usually when you go to print you will get a printer dialog box in addition to the PS dialog box. Are these settings consistent with the PS settings?
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Old 22/02/12, 04:10   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

I get much better success from custom paper profiles than the ones provided by the manufacturer. Fortunately a friend owns the necessary (expensive) equipment to do these.

You might want to peruse this old FAQ, which although pertains to the 3800, still provides useful tips and information; see especially the section on profiling, etc.

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Old 22/02/12, 06:09   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

Here is a recent thread where we discussed some of the calibration issues also. In Post #12 is a discussion about some Photoshop adjustments that helped me. But I found I needed to get the monitor, profiles and print samples "in the ballpark" before these steps could be most effective.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...libration.html
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Old 22/02/12, 21:24   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

First, I click fifth icon to create a layer group and rename it to soft proofing for 3880. Then, I do the View//Proof Setup/Custom. Then is choose to simulate Epson 3880 with paper of choice. Check perceptual, check Black Point compensation. Check Simulate Paper Color. Click OK.

Then I create a new layer under this layer group/select levels/leave layer mask on. With this layer I move center triangle left to add more brightness is necessary. This should get you close to your screen. Set mode to Luminosity.
Now create a second layer under this layer group and select Color Balance. Instead of normal select Hue Leave layer mask on. Targeted to hue this is very important. I increase mid-tone color balance only slightly to get closer to the screen.
Now create a third layer under this layer group/select Hue/Saturation and instead of normal select Saturation. Leave layer mask on. Increase the middle slider ONLY-the saturation slider. This is sufficient to adjust closer to your screen.
Comment by "algrove"

Thanks for all that info very interesting.
I thought the above information would do what I want... and I got so far, but I am using CS5 and things are a little different so I lost my way...If anyone can convert this instruction for CS5 users it would be fantastic. Sorry I am not the most techy guy.
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Old 23/02/12, 05:07   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DES View Post
First, I click fifth icon to create a layer group and rename it to soft proofing for 3880. Then, I do the View//Proof Setup/Custom. Then is choose to simulate Epson 3880 with paper of choice. Check perceptual, check Black Point compensation. Check Simulate Paper Color. Click OK.

Then I create a new layer under this layer group/select levels/leave layer mask on. With this layer I move center triangle left to add more brightness is necessary. This should get you close to your screen. Set mode to Luminosity.
Now create a second layer under this layer group and select Color Balance. Instead of normal select Hue Leave layer mask on. Targeted to hue this is very important. I increase mid-tone color balance only slightly to get closer to the screen.
Now create a third layer under this layer group/select Hue/Saturation and instead of normal select Saturation. Leave layer mask on. Increase the middle slider ONLY-the saturation slider. This is sufficient to adjust closer to your screen.
Comment by "algrove"

Thanks for all that info very interesting.
I thought the above information would do what I want... and I got so far, but I am using CS5 and things are a little different so I lost my way...If anyone can convert this instruction for CS5 users it would be fantastic. Sorry I am not the most techy guy.
Sorry, those instructions are for CS5, but I understand if you're not too familiar with CS5 they are a little cryptic. The objective is to adjust brightness, contrast, saturation and color balance to get the image to match your monitor. I think you said you were getting good results with Epson paper, but not the Hahnemuhle. If you're getting good results with one paper but not the other it does seem that the problem is with the profile you're using for the Hahnemuhle. Also, are you changing from matte to gloss or vice-versa?

Last edited by kdriceman; 23/02/12 at 05:33.
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Old 23/02/12, 10:18   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: The use of profiles etc.

Thanks for that. I am just starting printing, and using profiles for the first time too. I think that I could have done better with my old CS3 following these instructions but my new CS5 is more ...automatic,! If that makes sence so I got lost. I will persevere though because I need to learn how to adjust the soft proof in a more accurate less destructive way.

I guess I am having difficulty linking all profiles together so it works! My first papers are fine art papers which I think are not going to be for me, but at least I now know that, so now I will be looking at other papers that might work better for me.
The Epson I have had better results with is only the generic Epson paper type profiles that show in the printer settings so it wasn't really a real profile as such.

Thanks for your input.
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