Wide Angles on an M8

[vikasmg]

The same text below was posted on dpreview.com - if you've read or answered that message you may want to ignore this:

It had to happen. I'm travelling and my dealer calls on my mobile phone to say my M8 fix is ready! Having pushed a couple of people off my meeting list I'll be back home on Tuesday, a couple of hours earlier than planned and will be at the door when the camera store opens.

It's only now that an obvious issue strikes me: Lateley I've found that my most frequently used lens on the M6 is 28mm and to get the same field of view on an M8 I'll have to - sooner or later - buy a 21mm. Two questions:

1. Hoping to avoid "only a Leica is a Leica" type of comment, is it silly to consider a Zeiss 21mm ragther than Leica's Elmarit. Is there an objective or subjective difference in the quality of images I would get?

2. Before the M8 was announced I'd been wondering about using a 24mm. Are there any rumours of a wider-than-21 prime lens from Leica? If there are samples of the Zeiss 15mm, could someone point me to any images that may have been posted?

TIA

[canlogic]

Here is a link.

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/dig...15-photos.html

I have seen prints from an M8 with the Biogon (I think that was name) 21 at my dealer and they were great.

[davidada]

Fantastic results are available withmany non Leitz lenses - try the 12 or 15mm CV hologons,all of the Zeiss and if you are lucky try and fins a 21mm Kobalux, good shooting

[dhoelscher]

Originally Posted by vikasmg

T
... If there are samples of the Zeiss 15mm, could someone point me to any images that may have been posted?

TIA

My apologies - I don't yet have an M8 (#19 on waiting list) but here's a pic taken with the Zeiss 15mm on the Epson R-D1 ...

[gurtch]

On Erwin Puts web site he tests the ZM 21, and has good things to say about it. I quote Erwin :

Conclusion
This Biogon lens is second to none in the current rangefinder field and is a most interesting design in the 21mm class. It delivers at least the same overall performance as the Leica Elmarit-M 21mm, but without the employment of aspherical surfaces and at a lower price. The sturdiness of the mount may be not as good as that of the Leica, but the mechanical accuracy is not affected and I did not detect any decentring. With the Leica Md on the not-too-distant horizon (we may assume) it is a tempting alternative to the Elmarit 21mm, especially because of its even coverage over most of the image field at the wider apertures.

The performance of this lens warrants a somewhat wider perspective on lens design. Zeiss demonstrates that it is possible to improve on first-class lenses while using conventional designs and without elevating the cost to astronomical heights. Leica has lived for a long period in an ivory tower, supported by a loyal following of collectors who were more interested in the safety of their investments than in the quality of the images that could be produced with Leica equipment. The digital tsunami has at last reached the parapet of the Leica fortress and it is evident that Leica must become a more market-oriented company. Leica claims to offer an unique mixture of traditional values and modern technology for its products. You do not get market share in the current photographic world without a sensible price-performance relation and here Zeiss is beginning to lead the way, at least in matters optical.

Hope this helpful. I bought the ZM 21 for use with the M8, but I have not yet received the camera, so have not personally tried it.
Dave

[robsteve]

Lens coding could be the drawback of using non Leica wides on the M8. When using an IR filter with a wide angle, the edges of the frame go a bit cyan. With a coded Leica lens, the M8 could correct this in software.

I doubt Leica will be enabling this image correction for third part lenses.

[guy_mancuso]

David the Zeiss 21mm is very nice on the M8 very sharp. I did sell it just the other day and bought the leica 21, just because I will carry the same look through my images

[dhoelscher]

Originally Posted by robsteve

Lens coding could be the drawback of using non Leica wides on the M8. When using an IR filter with a wide angle, the edges of the frame go a bit cyan. With a coded Leica lens, the M8 could correct this in software.

I doubt Leica will be enabling this image correction for third part lenses.

I agree. Maybe shoot the super wides "naked" or naked and B&W like Sean .... - then there's no issue. Or, maybe a fancy anti-cyan radial mask in Photoshop.

[guy_mancuso]

David look for the cut filter thread i started i used that Zeiss 21mm and you can see the effect with the filter on and off

[sreidvt]

Originally Posted by robsteve

Lens coding could be the drawback of using non Leica wides on the M8. When using an IR filter with a wide angle, the edges of the frame go a bit cyan. With a coded Leica lens, the M8 could correct this in software.

I doubt Leica will be enabling this image correction for third part lenses.

That's a key point. But, if Leica allows us to manually select the lens in the menu than one may be able to use the Zeiss 21 with the Leica 21 setting.

Cheers,

Sean

[glenerrolrd]

Originally Posted by sreidvt

That's a key point. But, if Leica allows us to manually select the lens in the menu than one may be able to use the Zeiss 21 with the Leica 21 setting.

Cheers,

Sean

how do you think they will handle the 16-8-21 tri elmar? only one 6bit code to read so you either have to enter it or they have to pick a compromise std focal length?

[kaimaui]

Originally Posted by glenerrolrd

how do you think they will handle the 16-8-21 tri elmar? only one 6bit code to read so you either have to enter it or they have to pick a compromise std focal length?

I have been wondering about how they differenchiate the different focal lenghts on the tri elmars also. Anybody have any ideas.

KAI

[adan]

Roger and Kai - the 28/35/50 Tri-Elmars communicate the focal length actually used via the frame-selector mechanics (in order to shift the frame from 28 to 50 to 35).

While I have not seen anything definitive about the 16/18/21 (none have been released even for review yet), I expect Leica used the same system. No useful framing information (since there are no built-in frames for those focal lengths), but electronic info, in combination with the zebra coding, to ID the chosen focal length for corrections and EXIF.

On the original question: I'm sure there are some differences between the Zeiss and Leica 21s. But not necessarily better vs. worse - just different. Zeiss designs tend to be pinker and contrastier than Leica, on average. I have a Cosina "Voigtlander" 15mm that works quite nicely on the M8, and Cosina also builds the Zeiss 21 f/2.8, as well as their own 21 f/4 design.

I had the Zeiss/Kyocera 21 f/2.8 for the Contax G line, and it is/was probably THE best lens I ever used in that focal length range (and I've used almost all of them at one point or another). The current Biogon is a somewhat different design, but I expect it is still quite good.

[glenerrolrd]

Originally Posted by adan

Roger and Kai - the 28/35/50 Tri-Elmars communicate the focal length actually used via the frame-selector mechanics (in order to shift the frame from 28 to 50 to 35).

While I have not seen anything definitive about the 16/18/21 (none have been released even for review yet), I expect Leica used the same system. No useful framing information (since there are no built-in frames for those focal lengths), but electronic info, in combination with the zebra coding, to ID the chosen focal length for corrections and EXIF.

On the original question: I'm sure there are some differences between the Zeiss and Leica 21s. But not necessarily better vs. worse - just different. Zeiss designs tend to be pinker and contrastier than Leica, on average. I have a Cosina "Voigtlander" 15mm that works quite nicely on the M8, and Cosina also builds the Zeiss 21 f/2.8, as well as their own 21 f/4 design.

I had the Zeiss/Kyocera 21 f/2.8 for the Contax G line, and it is/was probably THE best lens I ever used in that focal length range (and I've used almost all of them at one point or another). The current Biogon is a somewhat different design, but I expect it is still quite good.

I have assumed that someone will figure out how to dupicate the 6 bit coding on alternative maker lenses( or possibly Leica will allow for direct entry of the lens selected thru the menu) . This would then allow the firmware to make in camera corrections appropriate for this focal length. That will cover the 21 at least partially. But for say the new zeiss 18 or the CV 15 we may be out of luck ?

[marknorton]

Originally Posted by adan

While I have not seen anything definitive about the 16/18/21 (none have been released even for review yet), I expect Leica used the same system. No useful framing information (since there are no built-in frames for those focal lengths), but electronic info, in combination with the zebra coding, to ID the chosen focal length for corrections and EXIF.

Indeed, the 3 position frame selection lever is sensed with the existing TE to determine which of the 3 focal lengths is selected.

If the new TE I saw at Photokina was representative, they have not replicated the same mechanism in the new lens. As Andy says, there are no built-in frames for this lens but there is only a single coding in the bayonet ring so the camera cannot tell what focal length is in use. I don't know which of the three frame sets is selected - there must be one because there isn't a "none" option.

Tough to know what the camera will show with lens recognition enabled on the display and the file header and since the cyan problem with 486s gets progressively worse the wider you go, not knowing the focal length selected might prevent adequate correction with this lens.

Wouldn't surprise me if the lens was going to be modified to communicate the selected focal length, either by using the frame selection lever or, potentially, by changing the code when you change the focal length setting.

Just one more bullet item on Leica's "issues" list.

[adan]

Mark Thanks for that clarification.

OTOH the Super-wide TE has a range of only 1.31x. Plus, it looks (from its length) like it may be a rather telecentric, digital friendly design. It may well be that the various optical effects (corner cyans, vignetting etc.) are essentially the same over this very limited range, so that one profile will handle all three focal lengths.

[marknorton]

Originally Posted by adan

OTOH the Super-wide TE has a range of only 1.31x. Plus, it looks (from its length) like it may be a rather telecentric, digital friendly design. It may well be that the various optical effects (corner cyans, vignetting etc.) are essentially the same over this very limited range, so that one profile will handle all three focal lengths.

I can certainly imagine that controlling vignetting was uppermost in their minds when designing the lens so, as you say, they may have gone for telecentric. It is certainly quite a long lens. It may well be that the design and the limited "zoom" range meant they did not need to differentiate between focal lengths.

That was before 486s came into their world and as Seans results show, there is a big difference between a 28 and a 21 so that moving from 21 to 16 will be worse still. I'm also wondering whether correction is possible at extreme wide-angles. It may be that the effect is non-linear with angle, like a trig tan function, for example.

Has anyone tried a filter held in front of the CV 15 (no way of mounting it of course)?

[vikasmg]

Thank you!

- Vikas

[vikasmg]

Originally Posted by dhoelscher

My apologies - I don't yet have an M8 (#19 on waiting list) but here's a pic taken with the Zeiss 15mm on the Epson R-D1 ...

First of all let me than so many of you who cared to respond to my querry there at the start of the thread. I'm in a diferent time zone from everyone else I suspect (live in Singapore, presently on work in India) so the first chance I got to look in here this had grown into a fairly long thread of responses and commnets and it's been valuable and educational. I can't possibly respond to everyone on this on-again-off-again GPRS wireless connection but I just thought I should say thank you somewhere and this is where it is.

All things considered I'm going to try out a Zeiss lens as an alternative if I can find one.

- Vikas

[vikasmg]

>>Hope this helpful. I bought the ZM 21 for use with the M8, but I have not yet received the camera, so have not personally tried it.<<
Well Dave, Tuesday morning at 10:30am (why can't these guys open earlier!) I'll have my M8 but no 21. If I didn't live on the other side of the planet, we could help each other out :-)

Thanks for the help.