M8: "I think it's gonna be all right"

[pklein]

(apologies to Lennon and McCartney for the thread title)

I don't own an M8 (yet?) I learned a long time ago to never buy Version 1.0 of anything that contains or controls a microprocessor. It may not be "right," but it's a sad fact of life today that early adopters are beta testers who are paying for the privilege.

But so far, I'm optimistic about the long-term prospects of the M8. I base this optimism on some very critical perusal of other people's posted examples, including some full-sized RAW files.

At the risk of sounding glib, I have a suggestion for M8 buyers currently in a purple-tinged funk. Set the M8 to in-camera black and white, and shoot it that way--at least until Leica announces its fix and policies. This will temporarily remove the source of irritation until you know what the future holds. It will also give you a chance to appreciate the camera's good qualities without distraction.

The IR issue is a problem, yes, but we already know that it can be fixed with a filter over the lens. And look what you get in return. When I look closely at M8 files, I see edges that look like edges. I see details that, as I magnify them, don't smear out before I can see the individual pixels. When Sean Reid says that the M8 can draw like a medium-format film camera, believe him. This quality is the result of no anti-aliasing filter and a thinner-than-usual IR filter, plus great lenses. That IR filter needs to be thinner than in DSLRs due to the higher angle of incidence inherent in RF lenses.

It was a real-world trade-off, and personally, I think it was a good trade. A filter on the lens can remove IR, but no filter can add details removed by the camera design. One of the things that has bothered me about every DSLR I've tried (including the one I currently own) is that slightly soft look that turns every fine knife-edge into a slightly blurred gradient. Sharpening helps, but often at the result of an artificial look that screams "digital" to me. If the M8's better acutance comes at the price of needing to mount a filter on my lenses, maybe I'll decide to grin and bear it.

How Leica handled the issue is another matter. The M8's IR problem is understandable from a technical standpoint. There may have been some "groupthink" blindness at Leica, plus a need to release the camera no matter what due to financial and organizational issues. Regardless, the "magenta surprise" was bound to create Internet firestorms and conspiracy theories once the images were out there for all to see.

Now, what's done is done. How Leica handles the resulting anger and apprehension will probably determine the M8's success or failure. Rightly or wrongly, people feel betrayed, and that is what the movie industry calls box-office poison. I think Leica's actions next week will be more important than whether some black polyester turned purple this week.

If I were Leica, I would buy up a sizable stock of IR filters, and give away a couple with every new M8 sold, retroactively--whether or not the customer buys coded lenses. I would also implement a menu-entry system for lenses, similar to the Nikon D200. Why? Because the better the M8 can handle all the M and LTM-mount lenses each potential customer already owns, the better it will sell. I suspect this will mean Leica will sell a few less lenses next year, but they will sell many more M8s. And they will probably sell more lenses in the long run if the M8 is a success.

--Peter
(watching and waiting like the rest of you)

[adan]

Well stated.

Believe me that I empathize with the wedding shooters or the artwork photographers (or anyone else) for whom the M8's color idiosyncracies are crazy-making (or deal-breaking). For whatever reason, I just haven't run into too many purple blacks in my shots with demo cameras (and they are almost always Leica rep's black shirts, believe it or not (!!??))

Leica had to push the limits to get a sensor "package" that behaved well with RF lenses. Perhaps they went further than they needed to, and can 'back off' a bit without compromising sharpness and other optical effects into the image corners. But if they can't, it is easier for me to fix the occasional purple-black than to restore lost sharpness and clarity in the corners of ALL my pictures.

For other photographers, that equation comes out differently - and there it is.

My e-mail to my Leica rep today was along the lines of: "If Leica recalls the cameras already in transit for a fix in Solms - please have N.Y. pull one off the eastbound pallet and ship it west to me!"

[rick_dykstra]

I have no doubt that the following conversation took place in Solms a couple of months ago. You can do the accents.

A. "What are we going to do about the IR? They wont like being told they have to use filters. Or having their lenses coded.
B. "So let's not tell them. Not at first anyway."
A. "We'll hear the noise from here. All over the web!"
B. "Good. It'll get lots of attention, the sort of advertising we couldn't buy."
A. "We'll have to say something though."
B. "Yes, of course. We'll say that we're onto it and we'll get back to y'all in a couple of weeks. In the meantime they'll work out that we actually know what we're doing and that the solution is to use IR filters, of course. Having worked this out amongst themselves, the poor dears will settle down and get used to the idea that expensive and hard to get filters and lens coding is part of the deal with such excellent imaging in a handy M sized package."
A. "And then what?"
B. "Once they're ready, once we're seeing 'Don't change it!' messages, we chime in with 'the solution', which is a discount on filters and coding if purchased with a new M8. Of course we look after the 'pioneers' too."
A. "Brilliant!"

[FastFashnReloaded]

Originally Posted by rick_dykstra

I have no doubt that the following conversation took place in Solms a couple of months ago. You can do the accents.

A. "What are we going to do about the IR? They wont like being told they have to use filters. Or having their lenses coded.
B. "So let's not tell them. Not at first anyway."

It doesn't work that way. You have to understand that Leica is a company with a reputation for engineering. The engineering may be old clockwork, but it's still a rep for good quality. Engineers don't like looking stupid. Marketing doesn't care, but they never care about anything but sales anyway.

This isn't Microsoft that can say a bug is a "feature". This isn't the Republicans that can torture you and make you happy (hahaha) because it is for NATIONAL SECURITY.

This little snafu has got to have seriously POd a bunch of people in Leica Germany, and probably in South America too.

[rick_dykstra]

Originally Posted by FastFashnReloaded

It doesn't work that way. You have to understand that Leica is a company with a reputation for engineering. The engineering may be old clockwork, but it's still a rep for good quality. Engineers don't like looking stupid. Marketing doesn't care, but they never care about anything but sales anyway.

I think it does work this way. The purpose of Leica is to make money for it's shareholders, not just to do engineering. What you say about engineers and marketing types is right though.

To me it is inconceivable that Leica did not know about the IR/magenta performance characteristics. They knew about it while they were doing early design work and in their typical uncomprimising way continued to produce a camera with the best possible imaging performance, given the physical characteristics of the M system. The only thing remaining to be worked out would have been how to sell the concept of needing filters to a market known for its resistance to the idea.

[rick_dykstra]

Originally Posted by FastFashnReloaded

...and probably in South America too.

Dana, I'm a feeling a bit dim this morning, so please, help me out here. South America? Ta.

[fotografr]

Originally Posted by rick_dykstra

I think it does work this way. The purpose of Leica is to make money for it's shareholders, not just to do engineering.

That's true--but they want a long term return. It wouldn't do their shareholders any good for them to sell a few hundred M8s, knowing there were serious issues, only to have that end up killing the company. There is no way this was anticipated by anyone at Solms. Look how long it took the reviewers to realize the problems. Sean said he had one or two problem frames out of about 500 images. He ended up buying two M8s. Michael Reichmann liked the camera so much after testing it that he also bought one for himself. I agree completely with everything Peter said to open this thread.

[rick_dykstra]

What Leica needed to do was get cameras into people's hand quickly so they could see the imaging performance and start talking about it. They knew there would be good press about the excellent performance of the body and lenses and bad press about the poor performance of the body and lenses. Ha! They know that there will be complaints and positioned themselves to ride the wave over the rocks and come out on their feet and smiling. Two things they would have learnt from the DMR is that
- releasing late is a bad idea - you can't get it perfect anyway; and
- the web is a powerful force for driving sales of top end, enthusiastically awaited and emotionally charged gear like Leica.

The board members sat around the table, weighing up whether to get the new product into users' hands despite concerns from some that it wasn't ready.

"It'll never be ready if we let you engineers keep tinkering with it!" said Marketing. "Have you got the hardware right? Is it just a matter of tweaking firmware and following up with accessories?"
"Yes" replied Engineering.
There was a silence as they contemplated the gravity of the decision they could see the president was about to make.
After a deep breath he said, quietly and slowy "I would rather be criticised for doing something than for not doing something." And then with a clear and firm voice, "The camera is good. The firmware and accessories are coming. The market is primed. We will not let the build up dissipate. We will release the camera now and take any criticism on the chin. Go!"

[guy_mancuso]

Just want to know what the hell they were drinking in that meeting.

[rick_dykstra]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

Just want to know what the hell they were drinking in that meeting.

Ha! LOL!

Champaign of course. To celebrate a job well done and a decision well made.

NASA didn't wait until the Saturn V was risk free and perfect before launching it to the moon. Neither should Leica have waited before taking their giant leap.

[cmb_]

Interesting assesment Rick but I'm having trouble hearing the accents on this phrase: "we'll get back to y'all in a couple of weeks"

[blado]

I think will be more than right. It all changed when I got it and started taking pictures, problems, which will be remedied, aside! Reading every thread in every forum was very stressful...

[SteveYork]

Originally Posted by fotografr

That's true--but they want a long term return. It wouldn't do their shareholders any good for them to sell a few hundred M8s, knowing there were serious issues, only to have that end up killing the company. There is no way this was anticipated by anyone at Solms. Look how long it took the reviewers to realize the problems. Sean said he had one or two problem frames out of about 500 images. He ended up buying two M8s. Michael Reichmann liked the camera so much after testing it that he also bought one for himself. I agree completely with everything Peter said to open this thread.

How long did it take consumers to discover these issues? I bet it was within 48 hours of release.

[SteveYork]

Originally Posted by SteveYork

How long did it take consumers to discover these issues? I bet it was within 48 hours of release.

Are there are reports of one reviewer holding back flaws to imagge quality that reared it's head during testing. Another reviewer with held his review, because of these flaws, until Leica had time to solve the problem. See the article on popphoto.com. So Leica did know before release.

I doubr engineers run the company.