Leica credibility - what do you think?

[cobbslane]

I cannot be more disappointed to read of the recent problems coming out of the early M8 shipments. Is this a another example of a Company going beyond its area of expertise? I wonder.

Since I was knee high, with a dream of owning a Voigtlander, I knew of Leica. They were the pinnacle of that elusive combination; superb engineering coupled to absolute perfection of quality at any cost. Yes, their end products were expensive (and still are) but with that came the comfort of knowing that you had bought the best there was available. Even the outstanding warranty cover, whilst being impressive, was rarely needed.

For years Leica seemed shy of developing any adaptation that could be considered non-essential or pure gimmickry. Yes they seemed to the general public to be behind the times as the Japanese brought out model after model, with and without problems of their own. But what Leica did, they did very, very well indeed and even the man in the street knew that whatever he thought of the pricing and spec, he knew what Leica stood for. Engineering perfection.

Models came and lasted and lasted. Each one developed at Leica's OWN pace. Ensuring imperfections were eliminated. Each model was a natural rather than radical step. The user's were considered and listened to and the Leica conservative approach was used to its fullest extent in ensuring that things worked.

And so when I found myself able to afford it (and my wife allowed) I bought into the Leica family with an M6 after years with another capable producer - Canon (FTb, A1, F1 etc and now 20D, 30D, 1D) Wow was I hooked. My pictures were very different. Gone were the chocolate box covers and in came street photography. I was once more just as excited as I was when I got my first developing kit! And to boot I was invited to join a day's workshop foc in Milton Keynes where I was able to use any of the entire M class lans for a whole day. I had just died and gone to heaven. I was not unique as every other Leica owner knows - just proud.

So when my wife was in second weak moment I took the advantage again and bought the R8. Now this was very different and I had mixed feelings about it. Engineering superb, lens quality the best, ergonomics great (for me) but it wasn't so user friendly as I had found my Canon's. I dispensed with it when the M7 came out.

I recall the press coverage of the 'auto' settings of the M7. Personally, I found them to be fine but everyone seemed to make a meal out of the step away from tradition. After all it used batteries! And what would the street photographer do in the dark lanes of Paris at midnight when his trusty Nicad gave up the ghost! Switch to 1/60th that's what came the reply. But I suspect that many an ardent fan stayed with the M6 for simple reasons like this.

And in the background was the digital back. When is it coming was the cry. And at this point it all went pear shaped for Leica.

By now they had enjoyed an early relationship with Fuji and were criticised for that. They had brought out their scanning back cameras (S's?). And they had been brave enough to suggest they were going to go where no other Marketing Director would allow....an accessory digital conversion. All the Japs by now had realised the market potentail of digital as they still do. Don't covert was the cry...develop new and change your lens mount!'We'll make millions' they thought, 'as the punters will have to change their entire system'. And they were correct. But not Leica. They were conservative and brave.

So after years of development, problems, setbacks etc it finally appeared but at a time when the competition had moved on. So what would have been revolutionary was less so.
What do I blame for this? Two things. The harsh reality of the financial strength of one of Europe's finest engineering Companies - Leica. It was quite frankly very poor. And secondly operating outside of their area of expertise.

As an ex-CEO I know the trouble that both of these issues can bring to a company very well indeed. Far too well in fact!

R&D and in particular post development testing costs a fortune. Anyone who has seen the soak testing of every phone made by Nokia in a 1 acre 5 storey building will know of it all to visibly. You need to enter this arena with your wallet and eyes wide open. Budgeting for this phase is difficult but it must be a worst case plan because if anything can go wrong it will. You must ensure the product is tested again and again and that the standards of acceptance are set beforehand and not devalued to meet a marketing timetable. And you need a CEO who can stand up to Marketing and Shareholder pressure when things go wrong and you go off the launch plan. You need to think as if it was a life threatening venture - you just do not launch if it is not right. And never, never do you use your customers as the proving ground to get it right either. They will vanish as a result.

Are we beginning to notice anything here?

Secondly, stay within your area of expertise. Electronics and Leica should not be used in the same sentence. That is why a tie up with an organisation such as Panasonic makes so much sense - whatever you think of P. Without doubt they are up there with Sony, Canon, Nokia, Seimens etc in their ability to deliver on time, on spec electronics to the market. Japansese companies take 6 months concept to launch these days - and get it right. Why? Not because they have the 'brainpower' but because they have the resource. People, specialists, R&D labs working on the basic physics of it all and financial strength above all else.

So why are we critical of the products brought about by this cooperation? Would we prefer Leica to stay mechanical or rely on its best-in-class lens technology? Or would we prefer that in the M9 the electronics were Panasaonic with spec and standards dictated by Leica and mechanics and styling by Leica, with the output being exclusively Leica and not badged? And of course the whole lot built in Solms.

I do not know of a company the scale of Leica that can afford to launch as many models at the same time as Leica have. And who would choose to launch an icon at the same time as the rest? I suspect that marketing pressures - more likely shareholder pressures have gotten the better of them. And it is a sorry state of affairs.

And worst of all, when such a classic product as the M8 comes out with so many apparent flaws the whole rush to market backfires with sales underperforming which in turn worsens the very state of the Company itself.

I do hope I am wrong. You will probably think so. But if you can imagine a financially struggling company with a brand as important in its market as Leica and with new money invested you will also imagine a shareholder or two who is restless for a magnificent and quick return. And beyond all else positive cashflow that only rapid pre-Xmas sales can bring. Does he care about fringing, banding, magenta casts or a simple inability to explain the difference between Leica and Panasonic cameras. Not a chance. I'm afraid colleagues, that the days of Leica being run by and for enthusiats are over. They are now entirely commercially driven.

Which probably goes some way to explain the disappointment we all feel when the iconic M8 performs as it does.

Gerry

[Vivek Iyer]

I think Kodak goofed with their sensor (or more precisely its specifications).
If the spectral response claimed by kodak for this sensor is true (i.e. as in the attached spectrum taken from Kodak specifications), this problem would not exist.

Leica should have checked it before they put this sensor in their M8.

[john_r_smith]

Indeed. But the response curves are for a sensor fitted with the 0.5mm BS-7 cover glass. If Leica used a different specification cover, the answer may lie there.

John

[brunom]

Gerry

I don't think it can be said that Leica has gone beyond its level of expertise as they did not make the sensor for the M8, and especially as the results achieved with the R8/R9 + DMR [ different source] have been extremely good.

Personally I believe that it was rushed out too quickly [ for Photokina ] and that the ramifications of the specifications given for the sensor weren't fully analysed and checked before the camera was introduced.

I also believe that nothing is impossible - it's just a matter of how difficult or time consuming it will be to fix, but Leica should be letting us know what it is doing about finding a solution.

Bruno

[cobbslane]

Sorry Guys but I was hoping for a less technical thread being formed here. I am absolutely behind your well spotted ideas but I wanted to widen the dsicussion for once to other things.
When I invested in a new supplier at my Company I was keen to examine not only their technical merits but also their financial strength. (I was pleased clients didn't do that too frequently on my Co by the way!) The idea being that if I was to invest in new kit I would want them to be there to fix it when it broke or help optimise its use.
I do not know of the exact financial position of Leica. New money will be in it is true but vc backers etc want a quick return. Leica historically is the last company you would expect to deliver on that basis.
So who might lose out - we might. We might be stuck with M8's that are never fixed and a company that fails due to poor market vibes.
It is therefore vital that we get Leica to be more transparent on these issues. They have the benefit of a very technically wise and financially strong audience. A little PR would go a long way here on many issues.
Do we have any evidence that they even read this forum or are we blowing in the wind?

Gerry

[alexr]

Quite right Gerry. The civil and pro-active responses on these threads are almost heart'warming. Leica have a dedicated and loyal fan base, like no other. One could say they almost don't deserve them. If they don't respond in the right way, we will know they don't deserve us, and we'll walk. On the financial issue, that is why i was so rooting for stellar M8 success. I thought this could be the camera that brings lots of cash and ensures the future. Now it seems it could do the opposite.
Back on the tech note, the thickness of the glass is o.5mm, which is what Leica said it uses. Don't know if the rest of the specifications apply though.

[Vivek Iyer]

If Leica had to change the cover glass on the Kodak sensor, they would have gone through the trouble of surgically removing that filter glass (it is glued onto the sensor casing).

That is very unlikley.

[lct]

Well you know many of us are old Leicaphiles here so we do know that Leica is second to none as far as lenses but for the rest...
What is inadequate here is not the bugs themselves, we can bet they will be corrected in the next batch of cameras.
Its Leica's response or lack of response that is a matter of concern IMHO.
They should do like Mercedes Benz and other serious brands when a bug is detected: take back the bad stuff and repare or replace it freely with a little gift and sincere apologies.

[rosuna]

Is the problem so serious?

Sean Reid claims (and I think it is very reasonable) that these problems arise only occasionally. The banding problem can be solved by means of new software.

I will buy my M8 tomorrow.

[earleygallery]

I agree with LCT. I am sure that the problems can be fixed, but it may need a product recall and rescheduled launch.

I'm astounded at the 'official' response so far, if that is indeed what it is. I would be more than upset if I'd laid out a significant sum of hard earned cash for a faulty product to be given such scant regard for my concerns. The comments re. Classic Camera's stance on the problem is equally blinkered.

The news is spreading through the photographic community like an uncontrollable forest fire, and Leica - who can put out the flames - are nowhere. I'm sure people in Solms have been working 'round the clock for the past couple of days, but they need to be seen to be doing something.

[gareth_c]

Yes, all this talk is spreading to other sites, just browse and you will see. This is what I meant previously that I would prefer leica say something, anything, before chinese whispers get out of hand.

[alexr]

I would'n buy it now Ruben if i were you. The camera is not really usable even under normal daylight street conditions (unless you like the black coated people in the street to have the coats turn magenta) and will surely need some redisigning before it can be usable, at least at amateur level. Whatever Mr Reid is saying, but i think all the great (and not so great) reviews should be read with a pinch of salt a hand. And after the past couple of days, something tells me that the pich is gonna be bigger than it used to be.
For an eyeopener, look at the BACK IN THE BOX IT GOES thread in this forum. And prepare for a shock...

[tom0511]

Originally Posted by lct

They should do like Mercedes Benz and other serious brands when a bug is detected: take back the bad stuff and repare or replace it freely with a little gift and sincere apologies.

Mercedes-Benz? Good joke lct.
Several guys at our company driving Mercedes including myself and Mercedes is not great in taking responsibility for their unreliable cars.
If you want a reliable car buy a Toyota. (I prefer Mercedes anyways)

[spylaw4]

Gerry, your analysis has more than a ring of truth about it. Too early release and insufficient and too limited a spread of beta testing of the "final" firmware version.

The statement generously posted by Sean after being translated by Christian has the spin of the PR department about it. What is needed is something more solid and factual.

[vmo67]

Early on when I was shopping for my first digital DSLR I came across the low priced Kodaks and almost bought. BUT, the more I read up on them the less I want to spend my money on it. All of Kodaks Med format backs are discontinued, the DSLRs are discontinued, the ISO on the DSLRs are no good beyond 400 ASA so it seams to me that Leica went out and found a cheap source for a chip and said "we will get those Leica film shooters that want a rangefinder looking M digital camera to cross over and buy our M8.

A business decision that looks like it was intended to generate quick cash from the digital rangefinder lovers. The Leica optics is probably the only thing keeping those M8 owners happy, I should know I use Zeiss and Leica lens on my Canon 1Ds, 10D and it makes a big diference. The Leica C/Y mount 50mm is the sharpest lens I have compared. So, unless they change out the chip I don't think it will get any better. Don't be tempted by the cover.

[Jamie Roberts]

Interesting. You've got a lot of people here commenting on how bad the M8 is, but many don't even have one, many didn't have it for long enough to understand it, and some have never even seen one except in pictures

You know, the M8 makes fabulous pictures. Does it have it's quirks? Yes. Does it need to be fixed? Yes--there are edge condition problems. Is it a terrible camera, or somehow essentially flawed? I don't think so, though--as I've said before--I wish the whole IR thing had been handled differently.

As for Leica as a company--one thing they're not doing is releasing "too many models" at all.

Panasonic is building and designing and releasing a relative ton of consumer models (they're good at that) with Leica branded lenses, and Leica is helping with lens specifications, no doubt. But their participation doesn't go much beyond that, I bet: it's likely a pure royalty situation for them, much like Sony and Zeiss.

The two models Leica is "managing" themselves are the DMR and M8. That's a pretty good, stable, and intelligent way to invest. Their royalties from Panasonic just keep coming; that's good business, not bad business.

So from a business perspective I fault them on communication, though they're not as bad as many; their response to the problems has been very fast.

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by rosuna

Is the problem so serious?

Sean Reid claims (and I think it is very reasonable) that these problems arise only occasionally. The banding problem can be solved by means of new software.

I will buy my M8 tomorrow.

Hi Ruben,

I better clarify that statement you made because it's (unintentional) troll bait.

1. The IR problem is very real and is being addressed by the filters and revised firmware. Some may not like or accept the filter solution.

2. The light streaking problem seems to have been solved with the hardware change, according to my testing so far.

3. The vertical banding problem is present in both old and new versions of the camera but we're just now discovering it in earnest. It's a good thing that a lot of us never noticed it until it became a big topic on this forum. Otherwise the witch-hunters and conspiracy theorists would suggest that reviewers, etc. have been hiding this issue from the public, etc... Now, apparently, reviewers and hundreds of other M8 owners have been "hiding" this vertical banding problem. <G>

It's too early to know exactly what's going on with the vertical banding but myself and others are doing tests to see what we can figure out. I can replicate it in my "first generation" and "second generation" M8s but it has never yet been an issue at all when I've been making real pictures. I believe others have experienced the same. We're all in learning mode on this one and various theories are being tested.

Cheers,

Sean

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by alexr

I would'n buy it now Ruben if i were you. The camera is not really usable even under normal daylight street conditions (unless you like the black coated people in the street to have the coats turn magenta) and will surely need some redisigning before it can be usable, at least at amateur level. Whatever Mr Reid is saying, but i think all the great (and not so great) reviews should be read with a pinch of salt a hand. And after the past couple of days, something tells me that the pich is gonna be bigger than it used to be.
For an eyeopener, look at the BACK IN THE BOX IT GOES thread in this forum. And prepare for a shock...

Care to clarify that set of comments? I take it you haven't read my review series on the M8 and so are speaking out of your hat?

[sdai]

Originally Posted by Vivek Iyer

If Leica had to change the cover glass on the Kodak sensor, they would have gone through the trouble of surgically removing that filter glass (it is glued onto the sensor casing).

... plus, the M8 will be ended up as something you can't tell apart from the D80, A100, K10D, etc ... in terms of image quality.

10MP is 10MP, Leica has gone too far trying to squeeze the last bit of the Kodak sensor IMHO.

Folks, Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Sony, Olympus, they all can remove the AA filter in front of the sensor, they all know how to reduce the thickness of IR glass - they all didn't do so, and there's a reason.

[Woody Campbell]

I'm with Jamie on this. These cameras make beautiful files. The bugs are, well . . . uh . . . bugs - they don't go to the fundamental qualities of the M8. Do I wish that Leica had done a bit more beta testing? Sure. But I'm hopeful that Leica will sort things out (the streaking issue is the only one that bothers me) and in the meantime I'll use work arounds.

By the way Leica has a history of less-than-perfect camera introductions - starting with the M5 - this isn't just a digital issue.. Tony at Popflash can provide details - its why he provides the guaranty that he provides.