M Digital: What I would accept (radical Idea)

[fotografz]

Just to be clear: I love Leica. I've shot both M and R most of my adult life.

THE HOPE:

My hope had been to have a M digital that could replace a DSLR for color work. I would continue to shoot B&W film in the M7 and MP3. I have a Imacon 949 scanner that makes it easy and fast to convert B&W film into digital files for an integrated workflow.

THE NEED:

I cannot afford ANY color anomalies in my work. This isn't the "Amateur Hour". During the wedding season I produce upwards of 400 to 500 images a week. A lot of these shots would include a man in black formal wear ... often next a woman in white. This formal wear can be made of all kinds of materials, from wool blends to totally synthetic fibers. Then there are the Bridesmaids dresses and the Bride's flowers. These cannot shift in color in an attempt to fix some other part of the image.

THE REALITY:

The M8 as it stands is useless to me as a color digital replacement for the highly capable DSLRs I now use. Unfortunately, the IR filter solution posted on another thread here doesn't cut it. It's better. Not better enough.

WHAT I WOULD ACCEPT:

1) A total fix. Not a partial fix, not a filter on every lens I own, not paying to code every lens I own ( eliminating the Zeiss M mount glass I already have BTW ).

2) THE RADICAL IDEA:

A hardware/firmwear/sofwear revision that makes this a dedicated B&W digital camera with a B&W review and histogram response.

I hope #1 is what happens.

HOWEVER, I would accept #2 because my Ms have rare seen color film, and a B&W digital M would assure the continued use of a top notch M camera and M lenses no matter what the future may bring.

Perhaps unknown to some, Canon and others (Fuji I think) have produced professional B&W digital cameras. The dynamic range and tonal separation from these cameras cannot be matched by digital color files converted to B&W.

My bet is that the problems with this M8 would turn into advantages if the camera were a dedicated B&W camera.

I know a vast majority would find this unacceptable. But I wouldn't. I had actually considered getting one of the B&W DSLRs ... a M would be even better IMO ... actually ideal for this application.

For me it would mean B&W ISOs that can be selected at will to match changing lighting conditions. Low available light work. Ability to shoot B&W images in bright outdoors lighting using wide open apertures. I just grabed the camera, set ISO 2500 and swung around in my chair and shot my studio camera in low available light using a 90AA at 1/30th shutter! I just used jpg fine as the setting and converted the file with in PS using the Gradent Map technique ... see attached.

Your thoughts on anything I've posted here, especially the RADICAL IDEA?

[guy_mancuso]

Nice idea , I just get paid to do color though. But a B&W version would be nice. I agree on the IR filter a total new piece of IR glass replacement. I bought the filters but I never use filters or wear condoms either. I want no protection between my glass and my sensor except the IR cutoff. One of the main reasons i own the DMR and the M8 is this.

[vic vic]

marc, man, with all my apriciation to u, i dont know how to read what u write... r u kidding? :-)))))
man if that was a digital back i can understand it.... ask leaf or imacon to do dedicated b/w digital back to u, or i think there is sme company that already makes it actually. M this is small camera that u need a total freedom with it. and it supposed to be perfect or near perfect.

i am b/w afecionado... never use conversions, tried it already on my friends files. while i dont mind to help them, i will not do it. b/w = film, only film and nothing comes close to it. u know that i think.... why u have your imacon???
and ya, me too - i would like to have m8 because of digital convinience and because of color (unfortunatly it will replace my beloved slides). but not b/w.... sorry man.... first do a good camera, then we can play with radical ideas for fun

[Vivek Iyer]

Originally Posted by fotografz

2) THE RADICAL IDEA:

A hardware/firmwear/sofware revision that makes this a dedicated B&W digital camera with a B&W review and histogram response.

Perhaps unknown to some, Canon and others (Fuji I think) have produced professional B&W digital cameras. The dynamic range and tonal separation from these cameras cannot be matched by digital color files converted to B&W.

My bet is that the problems with this M8 would turn into advantages if the camera were a dedicated B&W camera.

Idea #2 requires that the current Kodak CCD sensor with its RGB Bayer layer be replaced with one that is devoid of them.

Kodak sold such B&W cameras (dSLRs). Megavision currently offers a digital back for B&W imaging. It can be used with your RB.

[john_r_smith]

Marc

I am afraid you are not going to see either solution (one or two) happen in practice. Leica would only make a total camera recall if EVERY M8 owner were to demand a refund, and that is not going to happen. And a solution to the IR and banding problems is going to be a hardware one, which will mean a physical redesign of the camera. Expect to see it in the M8 mk2 or M9, but not now.

And the market for a dedicated B/W digital camera is vanishingly small, as Kodak found out some years ago. Most serious B/W practitioners are wedded to film, in any case. And can you imagine a company like Leica making such a climbdown? (which would also require hardware redesign, not just firmware).

John

[j. borger]

Marc,

To tell you the truth .... even if i had a choice between a fix of the camera we have now ... and the dedicated B&W camera you are talking about ..... i would choose the dedicated B&W camera.
So yes .. i would not only go for but welcome the radical idea!
In fact if i think about the IR sensitivity and potential it might have for IR photography i have the feeling already i have a dedicated B&W camera on my desk already as is!

[stnami]

#2 Can't see it happening in the near future not while tthere are film cameras around, the idea is not radical, just makes good sense.
The market for a B&W digital is bigger than most realise as long as the costs are reasonable and by this I don't mean cheap

[gareth_c]

Regardless of how many people want a black and white camera, No.2 isn't realistic. Imagine if leica did so..."oh no, it was never intended as a colour camera in the first place"...lol.

[Vivek Iyer]

I have another radical proposal:

Sell M8 with its sensor stripped off the IR cut filter. We can then use the camera for UV-Visible and IR with the addition of an appropriate filter. Would make the camera MORE versatile!

[malland]

Marc:

I think the market for people who want a dedicated B&W digital camera is simply too small for Leica to make this a profitable proposition. After all, with an M6 I can put in a roll of color or B&W film.

—Mitch/Bangkok

[wattsy]

I think a dedicated B&W M digital would be an attractive product but it would have to be a 'proper' one designed from the ground up without a Bayer filter. Re-designing the existing M8 as a B&W only camera (i.e. make changes to the firmware to 'disable' the colour capability) will make Leica look even more stupid than they do at the moment.

Marc, have you thought about using the M8 as it stands for your B&W work? The shot you posted in an earlier thread (taken by your Russian friend?) was a beautiful example of how 'film-like' the M8 can look.

[fotografz]

Didn't say it was a practical idea. And the technoids make it clear it isn't.

I am toying with the idea of using it as a B&W camera as is ... like my pal Irakly seems to already be doing.

But it will be a $5,000. White Elephant come resale time.

I have to decide. Wait for a week or so to see if there is a Leica response ... if not, then it goes back ... which I've alerted my dealer to.

This supports my theory of modern life ...

other people screw up ... and it becomes your problem.

Right now I've got a belly full of this crap. In addition to the M8, I'm dealing with:

New Metz TTL dedicated shoe flash AND potato masher that defaults to ISO 100 no matter what ISO the Mamiya AFDII is set to. No solution. Use 100 or forget it.

A Leica M 90/2.8 that is completely OOF when mounted on the M8 ... even at f/8. Have to test it on a film M, and then send it in if it's screwed up.

A Bose audio system that intermittently cuts out the audio. Not cool when showing potential clients a wedding slide show set to music. Seller doesn't return my calls.

Enough already.

[eronald]

I quite like the M8 in black and white.

Edmund

[WillGood]

Originally Posted by fotografz

Just to be clear: I love Leica. I've shot both M and R most of my adult life.

.................................................T HE NEED:

I cannot afford ANY color anomalies in my work. ...............snip......................

Its a pity how the M8 story has played out so far.

Unfortunately,you will also be having moire problems with fabrics. No AA filter = moire

THE REALITY:

The M8 as it stands is useless to me as a color digital replacement for the highly capable DSLRs I now use. Unfortunately, the IR filter solution posted on another thread here doesn't cut it. It's better. Not better enough.

WHAT I WOULD ACCEPT:

1) A total fix. Not a partial fix, not a filter on every lens I own, not paying to code every lens I own ( eliminating the Zeiss M mount glass I already have BTW ).

Sorry, aint gonna happen. If Leica can stick with this, the next model would be the fix.(maybe).

We've seen this same scenerio play out with the $5K Kodak 14n (no AA filter).

The chroma, CA fringing, magenta/green color casts, blooming, moire, and green/magenta blobs.

I own the kodak model that came out after the 14n, the kodak SLRc (no aa filter), which addressed the major issues. Still have to deal with some PP .
Mind you, these kodaks produce very sharp images.

BTW, the bad word of mouth on the 14n pretty much sank the Kodak professional camera
division, even though the SLRc is has amazing color & sharpness.

.................................................. .....snip...................................
Your thoughts on anything I've posted here, especially the RADICAL IDEA?

The M8 will probably be an awesome camera for monochromatic use.
Im, sorry but the 5d would be a much better color wedding tool.

William

[like_no_other]

Originally Posted by fotografz

Just to be clear: I love Leica. I've shot both M and R most of my adult life.

THE HOPE:

My hope had been to have a M digital that could replace a DSLR for color work. I would continue to shoot B&W film in the M7 and MP3. I have a Imacon 949 scanner that makes it easy and fast to convert B&W film into digital files for an integrated workflow.

THE NEED:

I cannot afford ANY color anomalies in my work. This isn't the "Amateur Hour". During the wedding season I produce upwards of 400 to 500 images a week. A lot of these shots would include a man in black formal wear ... often next a woman in white. This formal wear can be made of all kinds of materials, from wool blends to totally synthetic fibers. Then there are the Bridesmaids dresses and the Bride's flowers. These cannot shift in color in an attempt to fix some other part of the image.

THE REALITY:

The M8 as it stands is useless to me as a color digital replacement for the highly capable DSLRs I now use. Unfortunately, the IR filter solution posted on another thread here doesn't cut it. It's better. Not better enough.

WHAT I WOULD ACCEPT:

1) A total fix. Not a partial fix, not a filter on every lens I own, not paying to code every lens I own ( eliminating the Zeiss M mount glass I already have BTW ).

2) THE RADICAL IDEA:

A hardware/firmwear/sofwear revision that makes this a dedicated B&W digital camera with a B&W review and histogram response.

I hope #1 is what happens.

HOWEVER, I would accept #2 because my Ms have rare seen color film, and a B&W digital M would assure the continued use of a top notch M camera and M lenses no matter what the future may bring.

Perhaps unknown to some, Canon and others (Fuji I think) have produced professional B&W digital cameras. The dynamic range and tonal separation from these cameras cannot be matched by digital color files converted to B&W.

My bet is that the problems with this M8 would turn into advantages if the camera were a dedicated B&W camera.

I know a vast majority would find this unacceptable. But I wouldn't. I had actually considered getting one of the B&W DSLRs ... a M would be even better IMO ... actually ideal for this application.

For me it would mean B&W ISOs that can be selected at will to match changing lighting conditions. Low available light work. Ability to shoot B&W images in bright outdoors lighting using wide open apertures. I just grabed the camera, set ISO 2500 and swung around in my chair and shot my studio camera in low available light using a 90AA at 1/30th shutter! I just used jpg fine as the setting and converted the file with in PS using the Gradent Map technique ... see attached.

Your thoughts on anything I've posted here, especially the RADICAL IDEA?

Don't worry too much. Leica is a company being famous for their excellent customer relationship. Do you really think they are playing jokes with their customers - regarding funny problem solutions you can read in a internet forum? I don't think so.

I just read a Leica answer to a customer in the German forum regarding the banding problem. The answer is Leica typical I have to say: they say they are thinking about the way of the solution actually - camera send in or other (firmware?). Solution available end of December or January. Time for repair: one day.

I'm sure the mangenta problem will be adressed in a similar way.

regards
Philip

[Jamie Roberts]

Well, I don't think the idea of a dedicated IR BW camera is going to fly, though I'm sure there's aftermarket people who would do this (the way they do for Canons now).

As for visible light BW itself, I'm not sure, honestly, what Leica could do "in camera" that I couldn't do with various BW RAW profiles (not a PS conversion).

To the extent that you 1) like the rangefinder aspect or 2) the camera produces a better file under ISO 400 than a 5d with Leica R glass, I guess this would make some sense for a wedding photographer. But for the money, the 5D probably produces an incredibly similar BW file with the right glass.

The combo of Leica M glass, the rangefinder, and a wonderful, easy to work (like the DMR) file is the tipping point for me in my event / wedding work. So I'm going on "hold" at my dealer till there's a real fix announced.

And as Guy says elsewhere, "black is black"... neutrals are something a camera like this should nail given it's a colour camera design and a RAW workflow.

I guess all I'm saying is that if Leica went with option #2 it would be intriguing to some, but not to me; it doesn't fix problem #1 at all.