Back into the box it goes ... : -(

[fotografz]

Yesterday, I discovered how really bad the magenta cast is with the M8.

I was simply trying to photograph a demonstration photo to illustrate an answer in film forum here. I could not get accurate color.

So I ran a controlled test shooting a studio set-up featuring my M7 and MP3 as beauty shots on black velvet. Black Velvet drinks light and is always black in every shot I've ever used it for.

The Lighting was Profoto strobes using a D4 digital Generator ... which produces extremely consistent light.

For the test I used a Canon 1DsMKII with a R90AA, a Leica DMR/9 with the same R90AA mounted, and finally the M8 with a M90AA mounted.

The Canon and M8 were set to ISO 160, and the DMR to ISO 200. Shutter speed on all cameras was the same @ 1/250th.

Most importantly, I used a White Balance card designed for digital white balance. I know this to be extremely accurate as I use it with all my other DSLRs and Medium Format digital backs. Plus, I used the same SD card (a Sandisk Extreme III 1 gig and reformatted in each camera ... all three shoot to a SD card including the Canon).

The Canon and DMR were properly balanced, and the M8 is totally unacceptable.
Interestingly, the RAW files from the DMR were more perfectly WB than the Canon, and required zero WB adjustment.

There is no way to adjust the M8 files. If you WB for the background, the proper WB of the remaining scene goes green. Interestingly not only is the black velvet a deep magenta, so is some of the metal parts of the camera, while the covering is correctly rendered.

I cannot use this camera to shoot a wedding which is why I popped for a camera this expensive. Anyone who has shot a wedding knows that the men's formal wear can be all kinds of different material and a magenta tux isn't going to fly.

I await Leica's response, and am placing the camera back in it's box until then ...

Here are the test shots : Scene with WB card and which camera followed by the full shot with the same camera/lens.

[fotografz]

The final shot using the M8 ( you can only up-load 5 files at once).

My most heart felt hope Leica makes this right quickly ... or those cameras I've pictured here will become collector's items.

Keeping the faith ... cautiously.

[clayh]

The bummer is that I really like the camera. Except of course, for the banding, the weird profiles and the magenta cast/IR problems. But if you want a digital camera perfect for outdoor shots on cloudy and overcast winter days, this is definitely the go-to piece of equipment. The eggplant color is pretty, but I agree with you that your clients may be a little upset to see you have changed the color of the tuxedos.

Oh well.

[John Maio]

Marc,

That is the most convincing illustration of the problem I've seen. It should be required reading for Leica engineering.

[earleygallery]

I was also thinking this would make the perfect digital wedding camera. I've not taken a wedding for a couple of years now but did quite regularly in the past with my Bronica, and am having a few enquiries again.

The issues with the M8 are a real shame, but I'm sure Leica will come up with the necessary fixes soon, so put it in the box, but don't send it back just yet!

[carstenw]

I just sent mine back to Leica for adjustment. Even though the second 50/1.4 ASPH I got was much better, camera+lens could still not focus on infinity. It was okay with objects several hundred meters away, but from my office I can see several kilometres, and there was still a large discrepancy. I am hoping that while they change the focusing, they will do something about the magenta cast, no matter what. I don't mind the streaking as much, and I don't see green blobs, but the magenta cast bothers me. Hopefully turnaround time is better than the 2-3 weeks they told me.

Guy, I am as M8-less as you now

[jaapv]

Please, most of you are better photographers than I am, but I just set a black point on the velvet and the whole cast simply disappeared......

[carstenw]

That is not the same thing, Jaap. If you have two black objects next to each other, one rendering as black with subtle detail, and the other one being lighter but changing to purple, setting the black point to the purple object will lose the detail in the black object. I can also get purple casts on lighter materials than black...

[fotografz]

Explain exactly what you did please.

And post the M8 shot as corrected .. you have my permission to post the shot here with the explaination of how you did it.

I am most certainly open to any correction ... I cannot see how you would batch process a bunch of shots when WB cards are used as the master.

If this is a simple calibration fix I'll be a happy puppy. But that every other camera is spot on and this one needs to be "calibrated" differently, is really going to put a crimp in my work flow when processing 500 wedding images from 3 or four different cameras.

Open to learn here ...

[wattsy]

Originally Posted by jaapv

Please, most of you are better photographers than I am, but I just set a black point on the velvet and the whole cast simply disappeared......

It introduced a green cast when I tried this. Marc's images couldn't be a better illustration of the problem. Leica really must get on top of this soon - even if it means providing hot mirror filters to stick on the end of our lenses as a short term solution. I have a job tomorrow that I have been tempted to use the M8 for but Marc's images have reminded me why it's simply too much of a risk at the moment. I shall be using my trusty (never yet let me down) Canon 5D.

[brucek]

To me this doesn't seem to be a White Balance issue per se. If it were wouldn't you also expect the black leather / vinyl of the camera to also show a magenta cast? I'm still leaning towards the camera being too sensitive to IR, but I'm trying to figure out how to determine that.

Marc - would you happen to have some different lights that you could use for the above test shot? I know nothing too much about studio lighting but I'm wondering if a temperature change in the light could reduce the magenta cast.

Also out of curiosity, do you happen to have a pale blue filter (something on the order of an 82A) that you could put in front of the M8 lens to see if that helps?

Bruce

[jackart]

Luckily, this is all just the software issue and next pach shoult fix it Digital world! Soon some cameras will crash and show bluescreen error messages (like phones do already).

-Jaak

[xxl-user]

really terrible!

i don´t understand why leica doesn´t stop delivery of m8.

nobodie knows if the problems can be fixed by firmware-update!

arnold

[marknorton]

Bruce, I agree that this is not a WB issue, most likely the IR issue. The camera can "see" colours which we can't and the resulting RGB values have a magenta cast.

Take a look at the Luminous Landscape review - it shows the colour gamut of the M8 sensor with a distinct spike into IR so any material or surface which absorbs visible light and reflects IR is going to be affected.

I don't know how this can be fixed in firmware. As Carsten says, the software cannot tell the difference between black that's being rendered as purple and purple that's being rendered as the same purple. The solution is to stop the IR getting to the sensor in the first place and that either means a lens filter or a revised sensor cover glass.

[fotografz]

I have a presentation today so can't do another series of tests right now.

The Profoto lights are top level professional lighting and extremely consistent in color temp and level. The light source is proven as a constant with a myriad other digital cameras. The M8 is the anomaly here, not the lights.

I've also noticed that certain black clothing in scenes shot in daylight also went deep magenta while the remaining image was color correct. This supports the notion of a different response to surfaces and their reflective qualities which was demonstrated with the camera covering being relatively correct and the metal parts and velvet exhibiting a Magenta cast.

Here's a cull street shot I yanked back out of the trash which wasn't worth fixing, but exhibits the problem. The passing walker on the right side was wearing a black rain coat. The remaining colors like the skin and hair color are accurate, but what I can't recall is if the girl's blouse had a magenta background or if it was black. But I know the raincoat wasn't magenta.

[brucek]

Marc:

I understand that the lights you were using are top-of-the-line - I wasn't disputing that and apologize if that was implied. What I was trying to get across is that a different type of lighting might have a different spectral response which might not result in the magenta cast off of the black velvet. If I could duplicate the problem I could test the IR Blocking filter I use on my Sony to see if that cures the problem. But I don't have a studio lighting setup like that, and I don't expect to see the sun here in Rochester NY until Spring. :-)

Bruce

[etienne_werner]

Originally Posted by fotografz

Explain exactly what you did please.

And post the M8 shot as corrected .. you have my permission to post the shot here with the explaination of how you did it.

I am most certainly open to any correction ... I cannot see how you would batch process a bunch of shots when WB cards are used as the master.

If this is a simple calibration fix I'll be a happy puppy. But that every other camera is spot on and this one needs to be "calibrated" differently, is really going to put a crimp in my work flow when processing 500 wedding images from 3 or four different cameras.

Open to learn here ...

You are right about the green cast. I just used the 90% method to adjust the colours. Giving a black point based on the darkest patch of the background and using white from the M7, I did get a somewhat better picture but, indeed there is a green cast over the metal of the leica bodies. I'm finding this quite odd as, I'm sure, your studio flashes should be approx. 5600 kelvin, which should be close to daylight.
OK, I am worried now. I do believe that Leica will come up with a solution, though I certainly don't think (if I understand this correctly) that adding filters to all the lenses to reduce the sensitivity to IR is the solution. It will undoutable reduce the amount of light reaching the sensor and will need several size filters for all lenses.
rgds,
Attachment 14273
Etienne

[guy_mancuso]

This is not a WB issue at all , It is a IR issue and you can make a calibration for it as a work around and also in C1 you can play with the color wheel and remove it and add that setting to the whole lot of images. But obviously that is a work around and really should not have to do it in the first place but a very good example Marc of the issue and something leica should look at. I agree it needs a fix no question but any fix that requires me to use a filter is a sold M8 and 8 lenses , sorry that would be unacceptable to me with the use of filters. Now these are the kinds of tests that should be done, I have tested many many things but the control here to reproduce the issue is the key , the street shots and all that point out the problem , these images prove the problem. I am waiting on my M8 tomorrow and really look forward to it but also look forward to the fix. We need working tools that won't fail in the field like this.

[vic vic]

hi marc... this is super wiered what u have done.... and thanks for it
this is true from my experience too that digital can go off in some cases under different "reflection" levels... but not that much...
also true, that in small variations in gradations (especially in dark tones) the digital can go off locally under various color profiling, but again, not that much as u demostrate.

about lighting, there is no question... profoto is one of the tops and eassy to use and always super consistent....

your test made me happy that i have not jumped in rush into the m8.
i suppose leica people reads it... u see. leica is my fave brand, and leica camera is my fave camera (and by the way i have other super cameras too that i work with and love).. the mp camera is part of me (ask any man or woman who knows me and they will tell u that i without mp is a strange occurance). now.. what i hear and read about the m8 is a little disapointing... it is a matter of what u expect from brand like leica (the one that made my fave and most beloved camera - mp). expectations... not less not more, and no excuses.. it is your brand/name/lebel/engenering, and this is my money that i willingly pay to u.

[fotografz]

Guy, adjusting profiles isn't new to me. I played with the color settings in C-1 and it doesn't fix the problem ... how could it with multiple blacks in a scene some of which are magenta and the rest not?

Gotta go to my presentation. Will check back later in the day. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news ... perhaps more than anyone, I wanted this camera to soar.

Let's wait and see what Leica does.