M8 Viewfinder

[Rolo]

Is there any news on the viewfinder for the digital M ?

Will there be options ? What will be the length of the rangefinder ? What frame lines will be on show ? ..... and with a smile :-) ..... will there be focus confirmation, auto ISO and bracketing options ?

I prefer the 0.91 viewfinder of my M3 and its rangefinder base accuracy, but I don't anticipate Leica will offer such a fine system on the M8. Even so, there is a massive difference between the 0.85 and the 0.58 (presumably multiplied by 1.33 ?), and it will be disappointing if only the widest finder is available. Although I'm not a 135mm lens user, wouldn't that lens be pretty useless on a 58mm equivalent viewfinder ?

Is a second optional finder glass especially complex to design and manufacture once the first has been designed ?

Leica know exactly what its customers preferences are. Hopefully the investment requirements will allow them to provide the choices.

[and a particular welcome to dear friend Fotografz. ]

[marknorton]

We know very little except that the camera will support the older goggle lenses and the macro adapter which puts the 3 windows in the same place relative to the lens mount. We thought at one time that the lens mount would sit proud of the camera as it does in the R-D1 to allow the shutter to be set a little forward to make space for the sensor/LCD package. It now seems more likely it will sit flush and the body will either be thicker or the package will stick out, L1 style.

All that says the physical base length of the rangefinder will remain unchanged. It looks like 90/2 is at the limit of what will be supported and LCT suggests this means a finder magnification of 0.78.

The three diffferent finder magnifications, the eyepiece magnifier and the aux finder are all unhappy fixes to the problem that the fixed rangefinder is only suited to a relatively narrow range of focal lengths and it remains to be seen whether the camera will support 21mm - 90mm natively or whether these "solutions" will still be necessary.

Leica have kept quiet on this, the only official comment I have seen is "5 or 6 frames", so either we're doomed to disappointment or else Leica is preparing to pull the proverbial white rabbit out of their hat. I just hope that, after all the speculation, the camera turns out to be "better than I hoped" in more areas than "worse than I feared".

[calshot]

Would some lucky person or persons be out there already testing one?

[Rolo]

There is definitely field testing going on and has been for some time.

Leica used internationally renown names (yer Magnum types) in their first testing phase, but are now getting down to more local users. I know of a wedding photographer who has been approached, but is not yet participating in the programme.

[guy_mancuso]

Robin there is a lot of testing going on but we won't hear anything. The Viewfinder is still a mystery and no one is talking yet.

[calshot]

Thanks for the info. I can live in hope that they will phone me up oneday and ask???

[marknorton]

I am sure Sean is testing one, but he is under NDA and is being the consummate professional and saying nothing other than a comment a few months ago that he expects the Leica Digital M to be a great camera (or words to that effect). He doesn't even refer to it as M8 in case people like me treat that as confirmation of its real name.

Last year, on a visit to the Leica shop/museum at the factory in Solms, I was convinced I saw an M8 being tested alongside a R9/DMR - both bolted to a tripod mounted platform being carried on some guy's shoulder. In my recollection, the camera had larger viewfinder windows than the M7 but that now seems unlikely now that we know the macro adapter fits, so it was probably wishful thinking.

So, as Guy says, we're still in the dark. Actually, the number of hard facts we base our musings on is, what, 10?

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by marknorton

Last year, on a visit to the Leica shop/museum at the factory in Solms, I was convinced I saw an M8 being tested alongside a R9/DMR - both bolted to a tripod mounted platform being carried on some guy's shoulder. In my recollection, the camera had larger viewfinder windows than the M7 but that now seems unlikely now that we know the macro adapter fits, so it was probably wishful thinking.

Mark, on your observation of larger "windows", could it be possible that the "googles" might just mask the larger window down? I haven't used any goggled items, but they magnify (135/2.8) or work as prisms (90 macro adptr) and might not need the full window.
If the windows are larger and not just a prototype variation, it would help with the 21mm and possibly a 0.78 finder as LCT suggests.

[marknorton]

Bob, you might be right and I would be delighted if they have updated the rangefinder and viewfinder to handle 21 - 90 mm natively. If all they've done is change the masks and delete the 135 on the 35/135 mask, we've been sold short and Leica are not capitalising on the camera's USP. We love the concept, but it needs updating.

In the "old days" Leica could realistically expect people to buy more than one camera to get different viewfinder magnifications because of the long product lifespan. With the M8, that's more difficult to do.

I'm going to be interested to get my 21mm back from Solms after being zebra-dised. Currently the 21 activates the 28/90 frame and if we're talking pairs, it would make sense to have 21/35, 28/90, 50/75; not sure where the 24 fits in.

Time will tell. At least now we're in July, we can say "the month after next, we'll know...".

[guy_mancuso]

Mark I agree we know of only so many facts on the M8, and still there are some real question marks on certain things. i know my name was thrown into the hat to test one but not holding my breadth there but after a long test of the DMR and it's system I would be more than happy to take the time to compare the M8 against the DMR. God I would love it.

[marknorton]

Well Guy, hopefully you'll be able to make that comparison very soon. I have no idea how many cameras they will have put out there, the more there are, the more leaky the ship becomes. I suppose I am impressed there are no spy shots or leaked pictures. Perhaps they are all dressed up to look like M7s.

Makes we wonder whether there's going to be any more information ahead of Photokina.

[guy_mancuso]

Mark officially 2 weeks prior to the opening of Photokinia i was told , But more info now certainly would be nice for sure. How is the Zebraizing going. I thought it was a good idea that you did this now than wait for the storm. I think NJ is ready to do this also but i would call first just to make sure.

[ho_co]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

I think NJ is ready to do this [zebra stripe mount exchange] also but i would call first just to make sure.

When I checked with Leica Technical (Allendale NJ) a week ago asking about the cost of the zebra stripe upgrade, they responded:

"It will be $125.00 The Service Dept expects to start doing the work about mid Sept."


Let us know if you hear otherwise.

--HC

[marknorton]

Guy, the 8 lenses have been split into two repair jobs of 4, both are showing "in-repair" on the repair tracking section of the web-site. They initially only quoted €0.12 for each lens and came back with the correct price and a 20% discount for the 8. There's some other stuff in there, including a CLA of a 35mm f2, so it could be a while yet. I'm just hoping Germany's defeat at the hands of Italy has not affected their work ethic!

[grober]

Leica Camera Service in NJ is waiting for a machine to arrive from Germany that will be used to test the striping/coding once it's applied to a particular lens. That's what they told me on the phone two weeks ago. (Heck, why not just drive to their local Walmart and see what the scanner says?)

I've fallen in love with my new 25/Biogon, so I can now free up my 21/Elmarit to be placed in the service queue for coding. Probably won't see this puppy again for two months!

I also hope the coded 21mm lens will call up the appropriate mask in the v/f.

Or, all we all goofy since the mechanical mount linkage with the following cam may just work like it's always worked. The coding may only tell the M8 body what eyeball it has and do little else.

We'll see...

[nemeng]

Originally Posted by grober

Or, all we all goofy since the mechanical mount linkage with the following cam may just work like it's always worked. The coding may only tell the M8 body what eyeball it has and do little else.

Appears to be the case. Best guess at the moment is that the 6-dot encoding will be used for EXIF info, and even then, only the lens focal length. Won't be able to record the aperture used when the shot was taken.

Some people have their fingers crossed hoping the 6-dot will also be used for in-camera Chromatic Aberration correction, but I've seen nothing concrete on this.

Andrew N.
Leica FAQ
http://leica.nemeng.com

[dugby]

Originally Posted by marknorton

I'm just hoping Germany's defeat at the hands of Italy has not affected their work ethic!

I wonder if Italian Leica owners will be tripping over themselves to get their M-lenses into Solms for the digital upgrades.......

[jrc]

Originally Posted by nemeng

Appears to be the case. Best guess at the moment is that the 6-dot encoding will be used for EXIF info, and even then, only the lens focal length.

I read this somewhere else, too, but it occurs to me that with a computer-driven digital camera, why would it be only focal length (or focal length at all?) Couldn't you get the focal length by reading which viewfinder frame is being used, without any reference to the dots? Or if there are two viewfinder frames tripped by each lens, then you'd need only one of the black/white dots to indicate which it is, and the remaining five would be available for other information. What other information, I don't know, but perhaps they could actually tell precisely which Leica lens was being used., which would allow an on-board computer to make lens adjustments. And, come to think of it, I doubt that they'd need more than two more bits to provide all of that information, which means there's still be three left for even more stuff...

I wonder if there could be some user-definable stuff in there? What if there were, say, 32 user-definable blanks so that you could say definition 32 = a 50mm Zeiss f4, and the on-board library would adjust for that lens? They could have adjustments for several hundred M-compatible lenses, and the user picks his own bunch...

Or have I just stuck my head where the sun don't shine?

JC

[Bob Ross]

Hey John, I think you just tripled the possiblities of the coding dots. I would prsume that the reading would be taken at exposure, so that previewing other frames would be ignored. The user defined idea would be great, even if it were for only the all silver set.

[ho_co]

Originally Posted by jrc

... it occurs to me that with a computer-driven digital camera, why would it be only focal length (or focal length at all?)

Interesting speculation, but I don't see any likelihood of more info than the basic EXIF data. Look at the list of lenses they'll modify. They'll do the 135/2.8, which keys the 90 frame. And they'll do the Tri-Elmar, which keys three different sets of frames. They'll do a number of 50's, so just saying "Hey, dude, it's a 50" won't tell me whether it's an Elmarit or a Summilux.

And I can't imagine building algorithms into the firmware to adjust for vignetting, since that could mean new firmware each time a new lens comes out.

I don't know what it would cost just to replace a lens mount if I dropped one and damaged it, but I doubt it would be much less than this.

And look at the lenses that aren't listed--the 15 Hologon, for example, which (if it can be used at all) would obviously vignette horribly: If they had a zebra mount for that lens, I'd agree that there has to be more than just simple 'which lens was that?' coding.

Hmm. I guess that means all those Hologons sitting in safe deposit boxes are about to lose value since they'll become 'film-only' lenses. Or maybe Leica will offer a Hologon-trade-in program, say $35 off the price if you buy the new 15/1.4 ASPH-APO-M?

But, hey, we've only got two more months to speculate on this, so let's have at it...

--HC