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rpo · 10/22/06, 04:31 PM

1) Leica M8 - Summicron 35 asph - 160 ISO
2) Leica M8 - Summicron 35 asph - 320 ISO
3) Leica M8 - Summicron 35 asph - 640 ISO
4) Leica M8 - Summicron 35 asph - 1250 ISO
5) Leica M8 - Summicron 35 asph - 2500 ISO
Ciao
Roberto piero Ottavi from Italy

guy_mancuso · 10/22/06, 04:40 PM

HMM. If you look in the windows this is were you can see the noise looks very impressive to 1250 and than i see the noise at 2500. Just what I was thinking all along 1250 looks like the perfect top ISO. So this beats the DMR at 400 i would bet. Something I will test when I get the M8 is the DMR /M8 noise difference . But this again is looking very good. Thanks Roberto

Might have to get 2 of these. LOL

kamilsukun · 10/22/06, 04:54 PM

What may be the cause of tonal difference of #2 from the rest.

Thanks for sharing.

Regards,

Kamil Sukun

guy_mancuso · 10/22/06, 05:11 PM

Kamil sometimes the DMR will do that also , just the AWB see's things differently sometimes and you get a slightly different reading

sdai · 10/22/06, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

Kamil sometimes the DMR will do that also , just the AWB see's things differently sometimes and you get a slightly different reading

I agree, Guy ... all these pictures are demonstrating a strange blue tint (and inconsistent at various ISOs).

Thanks a lot for sharing, Roberto ... is there any indication that your camera is running at a production level firmware?

marknorton · 10/22/06, 05:33 PM

Yes, the white (presumably) bar at the left is not very white...

guy_mancuso · 10/22/06, 05:39 PM

This really is a simply case on how you should be working in the field . What i do many times is have a Whit-bal card and take a shot with it in my left hand in front of the lens . Than in C1 select all the images white balance to the card and apply that to all images. I also downloaded the image of the girl to my computer and it came up a a slightly different color , so some of this can be if Roberto is doing a convert to srgb than doing a save for web. There are variables that do come into play. So i would put too much weight on that until you are working with the raws. Not that Roberto has done anything wrong here just we all have different ways of working but with the camera sometimes it will see the same surroundings with a slight color change, actually it is fairly normal with many camra's. Just ask any DMR owner on this one. Our troubles come with shooting continous and reason some are waiting for the 1.3 version of the firmware. Also that blue tinge you maybe seeing is he is in the shade which always tend to get cooler looking. As you see many variables reason why WB is important in the digital world

Peter D Lux 2 · 10/22/06, 05:47 PM

Thanks Roberto!

Looks really OK to me at 1250.

While we are on the ISO-subject; what do you guys prefer, Noise Ninja or Neat Image?

What would be best for these files?

Cheers,

Peter

billh · 10/22/06, 05:47 PM

Hi Roberto,

Thank you for taking the time to post these photos.

When I convert from a full size high ISO tif to a web size jpeg, i see considerably less noise, to no noise in the jpeg, while in the original tif file there can be a fair amount of noise. Your high ISO jpegs look very clean - are they an accurate reflection of what you see in the full size Tif, or do the jpegs appear cleaner (with less noise) to your eye?

Thanks,

Bill

kidigital · 10/22/06, 05:48 PM

Great explanation Guy. I would concur. This also gives the user quite a bit of flexibility in how he wants to see/interpret the color of the shot. For those who haven't done a lot of work in post-processing an image, you pull up the shot in something as simple as Photoshop Elements. Then just go to adjust color and remove color cast and you can put the eyedropper on a few different points of white in the image and adjust as you see fit.

guy_mancuso · 10/22/06, 06:06 PM

Thanks Kurt. Also a word of caution also as we start seeing images come to life on the web from the M8 and really this is for folks that are sort of new to it. There is a lot to learn in the color dept. so what you see really may not be accurate . The most important is having a calibrated monitor, than knowing how to shoot digitally and than raw processing and than loading those images to the web. So i would say don't completely judge the book by it's color( pun not indeded although it does work here) when you start seeing images from the M8. there just are variables that need to be controlled and maybe seeing a face that looks magenta truly may not be. But what we see on the web can give you a good idea on how the camera performs but don't always take what you see as Gospel either when it comes to color.

sdai · 10/22/06, 06:09 PM

FWIW, auto white balance hasn't been a problem for many point and shoot digicam nowadays, so why there should be such a hassle with a 5K "pro" model"?

I admit that I'm an amateur who only does happy snaps, and have no time to waste on the "professional" PS stuff ... given your point is valid, then I shouldn't buy a M8?

johnastovall · 10/22/06, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter D Lux 2

Thanks Roberto!

Looks really OK to me at 1250.

While we are on the ISO-subject; what do you guys prefer, Noise Ninja or Neat Image?

What would be best for these files?

Cheers,

Peter

Noise Ninja and profile the image rather than use a camera profile.

marknorton · 10/22/06, 06:31 PM

I guess my question is, if all he did was change the ISO and reshoot and treat all the images the same, why is the WB (apparently) different for the second shot?

guy_mancuso · 10/22/06, 06:41 PM

Mark really AWB on any camera if you think about how they work is a crap shoot. It basically reads a scene and figures out what is best with any camera. now if i set the Balance on a Sun setting or a shade setting, every image would be the same because the camera will always read it at a certain kelvin temp, tint and hue. now changing the ISO could also have somewhat the same effect becuase it wants to read it differently for each ISO level.

marknorton · 10/22/06, 06:57 PM

Certainly, AWB is a best guess approximation from analysing the image data but I think the AWB should give the same result at each ISO level. We don't know if this camera is production level firmware though...

Does illustrate that for any shot, there are three options we're potentially interested in seeing - the completely unmodified raw, the poster's efforts at processing the image and the camera's efforts at doing the same.

guy_mancuso · 10/22/06, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marknorton

Certainly, AWB is a best guess approximation from analysing the image data but I think the AWB should give the same result at each ISO level. We don't know if this camera is production level firmware though...

Does illustrate that for any shot, there are three options we're potentially interested in seeing - the completely unmodified raw, the poster's efforts at processing the image and the camera's efforts at doing the same.

Very true and we don't exactly know what we are looking at also. Like I said the DMR has this varying issue on the continous setting but is fine in single mode, one of the bugs in the current firmware and what leica is supposed to fix in 1.3. The M8 here may not be the final version which really from all reports was just loaded a couple days ago.

So i would really not worry about this , the images are looking very nice though and the more we see the more we can judge also. If i had the money i would buy 2 . LOL

rpo · 10/22/06, 07:24 PM

I have sended some DNG file to some frends.
If you want I can send other shots: who have a large mailbox ?
Just email me at robertoottavi@virgilio.it and I'm happy to send all the 160/2500 ISO DG files
Bye
Roberto Piero Ottavi

nemeng · 10/22/06, 07:54 PM

Quote:

I have sended some DNG file to some frends.
If you want I can send other shots: who have a large mailbox ?

Please don't do this.

Upload them onto a server somewhere, post the URL, and then we can all download them.

Bob Ross · 10/22/06, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marknorton

Yes, the white (presumably) bar at the left is not very white...

Hi Mark,
Only Roberto knows which one is the most accurate. A hint for testors would be to take Guy's tip of including a white card in the picture on repeat shots, to check the AWB and to level the overall WB. Contrary to what Simon says about other cameras being more consistant, only those with hybrid AWB can make that claim and they are top end units. In all the talk about ISO & EV changing, custom WB didn't get the usual press & grumbles. AWB + RAW will usually do the trick, if automated. The real test of AWB is JPEG, where presumably the camera is processing the images consistantly.
Since we don't have a one button custom WB, this may be a camera that will do best with a preset Kelvin number, if the WB is going to drift about. As Guy pointed out the variation in these pictures could simpley be Roberto changing position or someone walking behind him.
Bob

10/22/06, 04:40 PM	#2 (permalink)
guy_mancuso Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 08/16/05 Location: Phoenix Posts: 8,059	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO HMM. If you look in the windows this is were you can see the noise looks very impressive to 1250 and than i see the noise at 2500. Just what I was thinking all along 1250 looks like the perfect top ISO. So this beats the DMR at 400 i would bet. Something I will test when I get the M8 is the DMR /M8 noise difference . But this again is looking very good. Thanks Roberto Might have to get 2 of these. LOL __________________ Guy Mancuso www.guymancusophoto.com Upcoming GetDPI.com Photographic Workshops "It's not always about what the client will accept but about what you want to deliver to your client."

10/22/06, 04:54 PM	#3 (permalink)
kamilsukun Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 07/28/06 Location: Istanbul Posts: 363	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO What may be the cause of tonal difference of #2 from the rest. Thanks for sharing. Regards, Kamil Sukun

10/22/06, 05:11 PM	#4 (permalink)
guy_mancuso Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 08/16/05 Location: Phoenix Posts: 8,059	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO Kamil sometimes the DMR will do that also , just the AWB see's things differently sometimes and you get a slightly different reading __________________ Guy Mancuso www.guymancusophoto.com Upcoming GetDPI.com Photographic Workshops "It's not always about what the client will accept but about what you want to deliver to your client."

10/22/06, 05:33 PM	#6 (permalink)
marknorton Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 11/12/02 Posts: 5,300	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO Yes, the white (presumably) bar at the left is not very white... __________________ Mark

10/22/06, 05:39 PM	#7 (permalink)
guy_mancuso Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 08/16/05 Location: Phoenix Posts: 8,059	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO This really is a simply case on how you should be working in the field . What i do many times is have a Whit-bal card and take a shot with it in my left hand in front of the lens . Than in C1 select all the images white balance to the card and apply that to all images. I also downloaded the image of the girl to my computer and it came up a a slightly different color , so some of this can be if Roberto is doing a convert to srgb than doing a save for web. There are variables that do come into play. So i would put too much weight on that until you are working with the raws. Not that Roberto has done anything wrong here just we all have different ways of working but with the camera sometimes it will see the same surroundings with a slight color change, actually it is fairly normal with many camra's. Just ask any DMR owner on this one. Our troubles come with shooting continous and reason some are waiting for the 1.3 version of the firmware. Also that blue tinge you maybe seeing is he is in the shade which always tend to get cooler looking. As you see many variables reason why WB is important in the digital world __________________ Guy Mancuso www.guymancusophoto.com Upcoming GetDPI.com Photographic Workshops "It's not always about what the client will accept but about what you want to deliver to your client."

10/22/06, 05:47 PM	#8 (permalink)
Peter D Lux 2 Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 07/15/06 Posts: 538	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO Thanks Roberto! Looks really OK to me at 1250. While we are on the ISO-subject; what do you guys prefer, Noise Ninja or Neat Image? What would be best for these files? Cheers, Peter

10/22/06, 05:47 PM	#9 (permalink)
billh Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 09/25/02 Posts: 862	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO Hi Roberto, Thank you for taking the time to post these photos. When I convert from a full size high ISO tif to a web size jpeg, i see considerably less noise, to no noise in the jpeg, while in the original tif file there can be a fair amount of noise. Your high ISO jpegs look very clean - are they an accurate reflection of what you see in the full size Tif, or do the jpegs appear cleaner (with less noise) to your eye? Thanks, Bill

10/22/06, 05:48 PM	#10 (permalink)
kidigital Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 05/09/05 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 553	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO Great explanation Guy. I would concur. This also gives the user quite a bit of flexibility in how he wants to see/interpret the color of the shot. For those who haven't done a lot of work in post-processing an image, you pull up the shot in something as simple as Photoshop Elements. Then just go to adjust color and remove color cast and you can put the eyedropper on a few different points of white in the image and adjust as you see fit. Last edited by kidigital : 10/22/06 at 05:50 PM.

10/22/06, 06:06 PM	#11 (permalink)
guy_mancuso Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 08/16/05 Location: Phoenix Posts: 8,059	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO Thanks Kurt. Also a word of caution also as we start seeing images come to life on the web from the M8 and really this is for folks that are sort of new to it. There is a lot to learn in the color dept. so what you see really may not be accurate . The most important is having a calibrated monitor, than knowing how to shoot digitally and than raw processing and than loading those images to the web. So i would say don't completely judge the book by it's color( pun not indeded although it does work here) when you start seeing images from the M8. there just are variables that need to be controlled and maybe seeing a face that looks magenta truly may not be. But what we see on the web can give you a good idea on how the camera performs but don't always take what you see as Gospel either when it comes to color. __________________ Guy Mancuso www.guymancusophoto.com Upcoming GetDPI.com Photographic Workshops "It's not always about what the client will accept but about what you want to deliver to your client."

10/22/06, 06:09 PM	#12 (permalink)
sdai Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 03/05/04 Posts: 2,290	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO FWIW, auto white balance hasn't been a problem for many point and shoot digicam nowadays, so why there should be such a hassle with a 5K "pro" model"? I admit that I'm an amateur who only does happy snaps, and have no time to waste on the "professional" PS stuff ... given your point is valid, then I shouldn't buy a M8?

10/22/06, 06:31 PM	#14 (permalink)
marknorton Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 11/12/02 Posts: 5,300	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO I guess my question is, if all he did was change the ISO and reshoot and treat all the images the same, why is the WB (apparently) different for the second shot? __________________ Mark

10/22/06, 06:41 PM	#15 (permalink)
guy_mancuso Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 08/16/05 Location: Phoenix Posts: 8,059	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO Mark really AWB on any camera if you think about how they work is a crap shoot. It basically reads a scene and figures out what is best with any camera. now if i set the Balance on a Sun setting or a shade setting, every image would be the same because the camera will always read it at a certain kelvin temp, tint and hue. now changing the ISO could also have somewhat the same effect becuase it wants to read it differently for each ISO level. __________________ Guy Mancuso www.guymancusophoto.com Upcoming GetDPI.com Photographic Workshops "It's not always about what the client will accept but about what you want to deliver to your client."

10/22/06, 06:57 PM	#16 (permalink)
marknorton Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 11/12/02 Posts: 5,300	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO Certainly, AWB is a best guess approximation from analysing the image data but I think the AWB should give the same result at each ISO level. We don't know if this camera is production level firmware though... Does illustrate that for any shot, there are three options we're potentially interested in seeing - the completely unmodified raw, the poster's efforts at processing the image and the camera's efforts at doing the same. __________________ Mark

10/22/06, 07:24 PM	#18 (permalink)
rpo Benutzer Join Date: 09/21/04 Location: Bassano del Grappa (Vicenza) Posts: 50	Re: RPO M8 Test - Part two - From 160 to 2500 ISO I have sended some DNG file to some frends. If you want I can send other shots: who have a large mailbox ? Just email me at robertoottavi@virgilio.it and I'm happy to send all the 160/2500 ISO DG files Bye Roberto Piero Ottavi Last edited by rpo : 10/22/06 at 07:26 PM.

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