Will collapsible lens really work on M8?

[jonathangraham]

I have no doubt they will work in extended position; but I am beginning to seriously doubt they can be collapsed while mounted to the M8. I am refering to the 50 2.8 and 90 mem. Every Leica person I speak to is evasive on an answer.

Can anyone confirm or deny this with any authority? Thank you.

[marknorton]

I believe current lenses can, earlier collapsible lenses cannot, but I may be wrong.

[tobey bilek]

The new 90 4.0 does not extend past the bayonet lugs like the original. My original 90 is unavailable for comparison.

The new 50 extends 1 mm further into the camera compared to the original 2.8. Just checked side by side.

The original 3.5 is the same as the original 2.8.

[bill]

That raises an interesting thought - is it possible to collapse the 50mm Elmar-M on an RD-1?

Regards,

Bill

[lct]

Originally Posted by bill

That raises an interesting thought - is it possible to collapse the 50mm Elmar-M on an RD-1?

Hi Bill, Yes if you do like me, otherwise i would say no.
You may prefer anything else than a vulgar shoe lace of course.

[jonathangraham]

Originally Posted by tobey bilek

The new 90 4.0 does not extend past the bayonet lugs like the original..

It was implied to me from a reliable source that the new 90.4, even though it does not extend past the bayonet, will NOT collapse on the M8 without possibly damaging something.

[wattsy]

Originally Posted by jonathangraham

It was implied to me from a reliable source that the new 90.4, even though it does not extend past the bayonet, will NOT collapse on the M8 without possibly damaging something.

I don't see how. The 90MEM - when collapsed - has nothing protruding into the camera body at all (which is more than can be said for some non-collapsible lenses like my 28 'cron).

[robbegibson]

Maybe I missed this before, but what is protruding in the M8 shutter cavity that a collapsible lens will hit?

Robbe Gibson

[lct]

Shutter blades i guess.

[wizard]

Originally Posted by lct

Shutter blades i guess.

Well, given that the M8 - in order to be able to use the existing M-lenses - must have the same back focus as other M's, it follows that the shutter blades will be at approximately the same position as the cloth of the conventional M-shutter. Unless there is some kind of ledge in the shutter cavity, as e.g. in the Bessa R2 and R3 models, which would physically prevent the lenses from fully retracting, there should be no problem at all. With the 90 Macro-Elmar, there cannot be any problem, for the reasons already pointed out above.

Cheers,

Andy

[adan]

When the M8 was touring Denver two weeks ago, the Leica reps would not let anyone put a collapsible lens on the body. Even the 90 macro - unless it had the macro extension mounted. Not even the current 50 f/2.8.

They said that Leica would specifically recommend AGAINST using collapsible lenses at all on the M8 (except the macro with the adapter) once the final user's manual is available, and that the existence of collapsible lenses is one of the prime reasons that the M8 does not come with Passport protection - Leica will not cover damage to the shutter/sensor from collapsed lenses.

"given that the M8 ...must have the same back focus as other M's, it follows that the shutter blades will be at approximately the same position as the cloth of the conventional M-shutter."

Not at all - the shutter could be 1mm in front of the sensor or 5mm in front of the sensor. Some early SLRs used their mirror as the shutter. You are right that the lens-to-sensor distance must be the same as the lens-to-film distance in film Ms - but the shutter CAN be anywhere in the 28mm of space between the lens mount and sensor/film. In the M8 the shutter is reasonably close to where it is in film cameras - but it only take a couple of mms to foul on a collapsed lens.

Also, metal-blade shutters are thicker than a cloth/rubber shutter curtain.

[lct]

Originally Posted by wizard

...Unless there is some kind of ledge in the shutter cavity, as e.g. in the Bessa R2 and R3 models, which would physically prevent the lenses from fully retracting, there should be no problem at all...

In theory i don't know but in practice i confirm that collapsing a lens into the R-D1 can be dangerous in some cases.
Why would the M8 be different to the R-D1, tell me why if you have more clues than me on this.

[ho_co]

I understand your hesitancy to mount current collapsible lenses on the M8.

However, one of the photokina postings specifically said that earlier collapsibles will not work, but that the current 50/2.8 Elmar and 90/4 Macro Elmar will work. The report stated that earlier announcements had been misunderstood, and the current lenses will work. (I believe the clarification was by Christian Ehrhardt in the LuLa M8 video, but I may be wrong.)

Remember what Leica's instructions were with the M5: use Dymo tape wrapped around the lens to prevent its complete retraction into the body. Leica published a number of diagrams--some lenses should use 3/8 inch Dymo tape, others required only 1/4 inch.

My suggestions:
1) Think: Would Leica have begun production of the 90/4 Macro, knowing the M8 was coming, if it wasn't going to work?

2) Think: Is there any warning by any current lens in the Leica catalog ***NOT TO BE USED ON M8***?

3) Think: All lenses currently in production can be zebra coded for use on the M8. Does this include the two current collapsibles?

4) Check the listing of lenses that can be zebra coded; if these are there, they can be used without hesitation.

5) For peace of mind, go ahead and look up the M5 Dymo modifications and apply them to the current lenses anyway. You'll look cute, particularly if you use different colors of Dymo tape to color-code the lenses.

Remember the M5: All lenses current when it came out could be mounted. A year before, the 28/2.8 had been re-designed so it would meter (and key the 90 frame lines). The then-current 21 Super Angulon would mount but not meter. Older Super-Angulons and 28's had to be modified to avoid damaging the meter arm.

In other words: When Leica brings a new model, it will work with all current lenses.

Despite current confusions, that will be the case today.

If it were not the case, this thread would not exist because Leica would have made very clear that even current collapsible lenses should not be used on the camera, and they have not done so.

Think like Leica and you'll see that the question is unnecessary. I worked for the company for 12 years, and I guarantee that all current lenses will work on the M8 or you would know otherwise. (Of course, I could be wrong. )

One more suggestion: Wait till you get an M8 and then ask--by then the answer will be immediately available!

--HC

[lct]

Originally Posted by ho_co

...one of the photokina postings specifically said that earlier collapsibles will not work, but that the current 50/2.8 Elmar and 90/4 Macro Elmar will work...

So much the better, Howard, but i don't see significant differences in length between my 1962, 1994 and 2004 Elmar 50/2.8. All do touch something (shutter blades?) when collapsed and focused at the infinite on the R-D1.

[cbretteville]

One indicator is that Leica has the current 50 Elmar on the list of lenses that can be coded.

- Carl

[lct]

But no problem with this 90/4 apparently.

[lct]

Originally Posted by cbretteville

One indicator is that Leica has the current 50 Elmar on the list of lenses that can be coded...

Yes Carl but Leica could possibly say that collapsible lenses are usable on the M8 as long as one don't collapse them, i don't know.
This is what Epson did in the R-D1 manual anyway:

[wattsy]

Originally Posted by adan

When the M8 was touring Denver two weeks ago, the Leica reps would not let anyone put a collapsible lens on the body. Even the 90 macro - unless it had the macro extension mounted.

But why? With the 90 macro nothing does (or can) protrude beyond the bayonet mount - even when collapsed (and at infinity). This makes the lens 'safer' in this respect than the 35 'cron (and many other current wide angles). I appreciate that what you report was the policy of the Leica reps but they are presumably mistaken.

The 50/F2.8 may be another matter. When I owned this lens (current version) it seemed to me that when I collapsed it on my M7, the rear of the lens was touching something. I can understand if Leica are wary about this lens collapsing on the M8.

[sean_reid]

I just e-mailed a contact at Leica to answer this question.

Cheers,

Sean

[brucek]

FWIW my 50mm collapsible Summicron works fine on my R-D1.