What am I missing about M8 exposure info?

[stevenrk]

Agree entirely with the notion of keeping it simple -- even in a digital age -- and accepting that the M8 is meant to be foremost a fast manual camera -- in the sense of setting shutter/fstop, not manual in the full sense of no lighmeter. (Which is why I also understand the concern about the reliance on the digital screen for basic operating info.)

But am I missing something, or will we not be able to see by how much a particular fstop/suhtter speed will be under or over exposing the shot?

What I'm asking is whether there is anything in the viewfinder that is more than just a light for over or under exposure? Is there the equivalent of what I've had in every camera that I can think of -- a sense ( a needle over and under the center spot) or specific measure (any modern day digital, including the RD-1) of where you are in relation to spot on exposure without having to go to spot on and then counting? Must be missing something. Because otherwise every time you shift the image/light you have to readjust exposure from scratch -- instead of for example being able to see that a particular change of framing will put you a stop and a half under from the previous shot and then acting to adjust as needed.

Could anyone who’s looked through the viewfinder explain what I'm missing from the info presented in the viewfinder, and thank you in advance.

[adan]

There are two ways the M8 meters.

1) in auto, it shows you the shutter speed it is choosing in numerals - e.g. 7-0-0 . Plus a pinhead LED that lights to show locked exposure (half-press on the shutter) or that exposure compensation is not zero.

2) in Manual mode you do not see the shutter speed in the finder, just two arrowheads and a center dot. Center-dot-only illuminated is correct exposure; one arrow plus the dot is 1/2 stop over or under; just an arrow head showing means you are 1 stop (or more) over or under.

Both the shutter dial and aperture rings are clicked in 1/2 stops - so to open up 1.5 stops as the light changes, turn either ring three 'clicks' towards your right. To stop down 1.5 stops, turn either ring 3 clicks left.

Basically the same meter readout as the M7. There are physical constraints on how large a readout panel can be fitted into the M viewfinder, without having to tear it apart and start all over, thus the very simple alphanumberic LEDs rather than a 35-character-wide LCD full of symbols and such, as SLRs have.

[sean_reid]

Andy just described this very succintly. The only thing that I can add is that (if my memory of the M7 is correct) the M8 uses essentially the same displays in its finder as the M7. I don't have an M7 here so I can't be sure but I believe that's correct.

Cheers,

Sean

[malcolm]

Originally Posted by adan

There are two ways the M8 meters.

1) in auto, it shows you the shutter speed it is choosing in numerals - e.g. 7-0-0 . Plus a pinhead LED that lights to show locked exposure (half-press on the shutter) or that exposure compensation is not zero.

2) in Manual mode you do not see the shutter speed in the finder, just two arrowheads and a center dot. Center-dot-only illuminated is correct exposure; one arrow plus the dot is 1/2 stop over or under; just an arrow head showing means you are 1 stop (or more) over or under.

Both the shutter dial and aperture rings are clicked in 1/2 stops - so to open up 1.5 stops as the light changes, turn either ring three 'clicks' towards your right. To stop down 1.5 stops, turn either ring 3 clicks left.

Basically the same meter readout as the M7. There are physical constraints on how large a readout panel can be fitted into the M viewfinder, without having to tear it apart and start all over, thus the very simple alphanumberic LEDs rather than a 35-character-wide LCD full of symbols and such, as SLRs have.

Andy,
Re: your next-to-last comment - I thought the M8 shutter speed dial was in full stops (like all previous Ms), while the aperture adjustment is in 1/2 stops. When in Auto mode, shutter display (in the viewfinder) is to nearest 1/2 stop, but actual shutter speed may very slightly - just as in the M7. Not so?

[ho_co]

Originally Posted by malcolm

I thought the M8 shutter speed dial was in full stops (like all previous Ms)....

Malcolm--Again I repeat, previous M cameras' shutter speed dials had detents at full stops, but the speeds were for the most part continuous.

S Reid corrected you about the M8 shutter speed dial at
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/dig...tml#post63881;
and I responded to your misapprehension about speeds of previous mechanical Ms at
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/dig...html#post63965.

Respectfully,

--HC

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by malcolm

Andy,
Re: your next-to-last comment - I thought the M8 shutter speed dial was in full stops (like all previous Ms), while the aperture adjustment is in 1/2 stops. When in Auto mode, shutter display (in the viewfinder) is to nearest 1/2 stop, but actual shutter speed may very slightly - just as in the M7. Not so?

Malcolm,

As Howard pointed out, I've already answered this question for you in another thread where you attempted to correct my information about the M8. Clearly, you've never used the camera so perhaps you should hold off on these sorts of corrections until you know what you're talking about. Otherwise, it gets a bit irritating.

[grober]

With my M7, I got very used to shooting on "auto" mode and adjusting the dial on the back of the camera to compensate up or down as I believe the scene warranted. I can imagine shooting again in "auto" with the M8 and hope exposure compensation will be about as easy as on the M7.

Yes, of course, we'll be able to see the M8 image right after exposure but, at this point, I sitll desire a quick way to "cheat" on exposures. It is painful to do that now on my only other digi-cam: a Sony point 'n shoot (with permanently welded Zeiss 3:1 zoom lens.)

Lastly, with color negative film my bent was to slightly over-expose since I knew just how wide a latitude this particular media supported. Now we'll all need to re-train ouselves since digital's latitude characteristics (if there is such a thing) is so very different.

-g

[adan]

Malcolm - I have handled an M8 - the shutter dial has clicks in between the marked shutter speeds.

From the M8 spec sheet: "Shutter speeds: In automatic mode (A) steplessly from 32 s to 1/8000 s. Using manual setting 4 s to 1/8000 s in HALF STEPS [emphasis added]."

[humanized_form]

i love the way the shutter speed is displayed in the M7 viewfinder, the way it just kind of floats in the bottom of the viewfinder. simple and effective. plus i like the design style used for the shutter speed numbers, it has that 1970s calculator thing going on. for some reason it reminds me of being a kid and watching sci-fi shows like Space 1999. hah.

kevin

[malcolm]

Originally Posted by adan

Malcolm - I have handled an M8 - the shutter dial has clicks in between the marked shutter speeds.

From the M8 spec sheet: "Shutter speeds: In automatic mode (A) steplessly from 32 s to 1/8000 s. Using manual setting 4 s to 1/8000 s in HALF STEPS [emphasis added]."

Sean & Andy,
I have handled the M8 (10/1). Indeed, the Leica brochure on the M8 states that in manual mode the settings can be in 1/2 steps. What I was assuming/relying on were the shutter speed dial markings - which are in full steps (just like the M7). Just re-confirms what "assume" can sometimes mean.
While I spent a couple of hours with the M8 (and before re-reading the brochure), I never attempted "in-between" settings on the shutter speed dial.

[stevenrk]

Adan and Sean, thank you for the information. I have to say I would wish the information available to me in the RD-1. They seem to have managed to deal with viewfinder real estate and also provide a much more informative set of information -- and in an unobtrusive way. I’m not asking for a VF full of sympols. Just an RF – in other words a camera that helps get and keep the connection with your subject .

The problem with using AE on the M8 is that you then have to use the LCD screen for EV comp. Again RD-1's use of the exposure ring to be able to click in to the + or - up to two stops is a much more natural, intuitive layout. I don't want to be saying that the RD-1 does it better, but it seems as if it does -- in terms of taking digital advancements and folding them in to an RF with manual controls that are where you need them and work without thought or taking your eye and your mind off the subject. Leica forces you to break the connection between you and the subject as you look down and away from them, and that’s almost the opposite of what an M should be.

Sean, look forward to reading part two of your review. In the end, it's all about -- for me at least -- whether Leica has pulled together the combination of an RF that uses L glass and produces a stellar file. The rest is a distant second, even if I would wish for a better interface between camera and photographer. But if the files coming out of the camera aren't knock your socks off compared to what I’m getting from the RD-1, then I have to say I'm growing less impressed the more I learn about the M8. And that’s looking at it as if both cameras cost the same.

It's one thing to make it look like an M on the exterior. That's easy and sure will sell a lot of cameras. Quite another to mix the world of digital and analog and build an M that maintains the intuitive and fluid quality of the brand in the digital age. I just don't think it's enough to give us f stops on the lens and a shutter dial. Those are good things and welcomed -- but those were givens. I also hoped that Leica would have found a way to take all the other advancements available in the digital age, select the critical ones for serious use of an RF, and executed the interface in a way that screamed M – right where you need, when you need it, and second nature almost the first time you reach for it. It seems, unfortunately, that although pretty, the camera is clumsy and slows and breaks the flow. All of this is without having worked with one, and maybe once I’ve put a few thousand shots on a card I’ll get it, but at the moment I’m just surprised at how much less inventive it is – and conventional in a bad sense in terms of its digital interface – compared to what I would have hoped for and have on my RD-1.

[sean_reid]

Hi Steven,

You mean M glass, yes? I understand what you're saying but I don't think you'll be dissapointed with the file quality.

Cheers,

Sean

[marknorton]

Originally Posted by humanized_form

i love the way the shutter speed is displayed in the M7 viewfinder, the way it just kind of floats in the bottom of the viewfinder. simple and effective. plus i like the design style used for the shutter speed numbers, it has that 1970s calculator thing going on. for some reason it reminds me of being a kid and watching sci-fi shows like Space 1999. hah.

kevin

Ah yes, the red LED 7 segment display so loved by calculator manufacturers in the 70's. To this day, I still use my Hewlett-Packard HP-55 calculator which I bought in 1975. Those were the days when H-P made decent products and didn't get into Corporate Trouble.

[stevenrk]

Originally Posted by sean_reid

Hi Steven,

You mean M glass, yes? I understand what you're saying but I don't think you'll be dissapointed with the file quality.

Cheers,

Sean

Sean, good to hear. Look forward to reading part two. Too bad though they took too little time seeing what Epson got right on building a fast pro RF interface and then imporving on it, and spent too much time just copying the D2 digicam interface.

Yes, meant the Leica M glass, as well as some Canon M glass I’ve gotten to know and appreciate in part because of your excellent reviews. Best, Steven