M-Digital .DNG files - Camera RAW upgrade needed?

[adan]

I'm trying to figure out a clear way of asking this.....

For the Digital M, Leica is likely going to use the .DNG format for shooting RAW, just as with the DMR.

But we know the M8 sensor will be subtly different from the DMR chip (different crop, probably slightly higher pixel count, etc.)

Will a Digital-M .DNG file be automatically backwards-compatable with any software that can read .DNG files, even though that software may never have heard of an "M8" (or whatever) camera? I.E. will such things as the exact pixel dimensions and the relative positions of the RGB pixels and other things the software needs to know - to process the RAW data into a picture - be supplied in the .DNG file along with the image?

Put another way: Will I need to upgrade my Adobe Camera RAW to version 3.xxx in order to 'read' .dng files from the digital M once it arrives - or will the DNG format all on it's own "include" the supportive information needed?

That's probably still clear as mud....

[adan]

Actually, I probably just found the answer in Adobe's DNG Specification 1.1.0.0:

"Self-Contained
With the current proprietary camera raw formats, software programs wishing to process
camera raw files must have specific information about the camera that created the file. As newcamera models are released, software manufacturers (and by extension users) must update their software to accommodate the new camera raw formats.

Because DNG metadata is publicly documented, software readers such as the Adobe Camera Raw plug-in ______do not need camera-specific knowledge_______ to decode and process files created by a camera that supports DNG. That means reduced software maintenance and a more selfcontained solution for end users."

...but any comments still appreciated.

[itn]

Andy,

I think, I understand your point fully.

It is quite true that the way RAW data has been stored is peculiar to individual CCD or CMOS, hence the software has to be equipped with a sort of 'key' to read those files.
In my opinion, DNG format is a standard method of above-referenced 'key' so that any data
can be read as far as the format follows the DNG method. Which means Adobe Photoshop CS2 can read M8's RAW file without up-dating the Camera RAW, since it shall be a concept of what DNG format aimed at.

However, I still believe that the Camera RAW must be up-dated for some reason which I just can not identify now.

Sorry, it is not a direct answer to your question

[pascal_meheut]

We cannot know yet. ACR tries indeed to read all DNG files so there is a good chance it will work with the digital M.
But other raw conversion program will probably need an upgrade.

BTW, ACR is probably the worst program to convert the DMR files.

[itn]

Pascal,

You are right.

Due to ACR's generality.
I mean, all-purpose RAW file developer can not support the individual CCD's specifications.

Regards,

[john_r_smith]

Folks

the whole point about DNG is that it is an "open" standard. In other words, a DNG file should be capable of being read by any software application which understands the DNG codec, just like a .JPG or a .TIF. It is the camera maker's responsibility to present a compatible DNG file to the software, which will have all the essential data about pixel count, white balance and so forth embedded in the file header (a bit like EXIF data in a jpeg).

John

[fotografz]

"BTW, ACR is probably the worst program to convert the DMR files."

Why? And what is the best?

[pascal_meheut]

Because the default color calibration is very bad. For instance, reds are over-saturated. Better results can be obtained through specific calibration but Capture One gives natural color out of the box.
When the DMR went out, I sent some samples of ACR problems to Leica and their advice was to use Flexcolor instead.

Other good raw converters for the DMR are Raw Developper for Mac, Silkypix and Imacon Flexcolor. Rawshooter is not bad either but colors are far from Capture One.

[guy_mancuso]

Marc the issue with ACR and the DMR is the default calibration is so far off it's downright scary. Now there is a way to actually shoot a macbeth Color chart and actually calibrate ACR for the DMR or any camera for that matter. I have tried it and came pretty close but a friend JR Goeffrian has done this and it really came up very good . The scary part is the huge difference between his new default and ACR default out of the box. i use C1 because the generic profile for the DMR is so ggod that it really does not need anything else , It's a great out of the box raw processor for the DMR and really even the Canons and the Nikon D200 also really good.

Now i don't know the technology behind DNG and it being a open source format but someone said it is just a wrapper around manufactures codes, not sure how true that is but I do know not every program can see the DMR files and if it is supposed to be open source than what is up with that they can't see it.

[cboudier]

Originally Posted by itn

However, I still believe that the Camera RAW must be up-dated for some reason which I just can not identify now.

And you're right.
One reason is that every new camera needs its colours profile to be created.
This is essential in order to have good colours after developping the RAW data.

[itn]

Yes, ICC profile have to be created !

Thanks,

[lct]

Originally Posted by itn

Yes, ICC profile have to be created

Would you mind to explain why?
Just curious as i always remove those profiles personally...

[itn]

First of all, correct me if I am wrong.

ICC profile is a profile which contains the equipment's, such as display, printer, digital camera etc., information of its color space, color balance in order to manage the same (color) appearance on different equipments. Therefore, one can expect the same appearance on digital camera, display and print out, since those information have been transmitted amongst equipments and respective equipments adjust the color appearance based on the ICC profile.
During the RAW development process, mapping on the color space, such as sRGB, Adobe RGB, has been done on the basis of equipment's ICC profile, hence without it, the RAW development process can not properly place the mapping point.

Regards,

[adan]

Thanks, all. I guess it works out as - any recent version of Camera Raw SHOULD be able to read an M8 .dng file, but we'll have to wait to see if reality holds up to theory.

As to variances in raw processors, I guess it boils down to which software engineers' taste in color matches the photographer's.

With my Sony R-1 (the first camera with which I've done extensive RAW shooting), the 'beta' profile from Adobe was quite magenta and a bit pale. I did my own calibration off a Macbeth card, which was much better.

Once I upgraded to ACR 3.4 with official support for the R-1, the revised Adobe profile was significantly different and improved.

But I would still do my own calibrating anyway, with any camera and RAW software combo. As with printers or scanners or any mass-produced device, individual units will vary, and using a 'canned' profile is hit or miss.

[lct]

Originally Posted by itn

...During the RAW development process, mapping on the color space, such as sRGB, Adobe RGB, has been done on the basis of equipment's ICC profile, hence without it, the RAW development process can not properly place the mapping point.

Thank you itn.
Is this related to the Embed Color Profile referred to here?

[itn]

Embed color profile, this case is EPSON Adobe RGB (1998), is when there's no specific ICC profile, this case Printer pofile, you may select the choice of sRGB (computer origin) or a bit wider reproduction of color profile such as Adobe RGB.
In this case if you do not check it, color appearance will be processed through sRGB, and usually the range of Green (Emerald) color will be omitted.

Regards,

[cboudier]

Originally Posted by itn

ICC profile is a profile which contains the equipment's, such as display, printer, digital camera etc., information of its color space, color balance in order to manage the same (color) appearance on different equipments.

This is "almost" exact.
The different equipments you listed can't have exactly the same colour appearance because they don't have the same gamut (the range of colour they are able to record or render)
The ICC profile (or entry profile for recording gears) are here to correct the original deviance of a specific equipment relative to absolute colour.
The profile LCT show us is an output profile designed for a printer : it corrects the deviance in colour of his printer, and normally, is automatically used by the printer's driver (who take also in account the kind of paper you use).
NB : They are NOT working profile.

It's the way you set your colour management software that will give you the same appearance on different devices : for photography, the most used method is "perceptual"

I hope I used the correct terms because my english is no that perfect...

[itn]

Christophe,

Thank you for the correction.

Regards,

P.S. I hope to have my ICC profile for my poor English !

[lct]

Originally Posted by itn

Embed color profile, this case is EPSON Adobe RGB (1998), is when there's no specific ICC profile, this case Printer pofile...

Originally Posted by cboudier

..The profile LCT show us is an output profile designed for a printer : it corrects the deviance in colour of his printer, and normally, is automatically used by the printer's driver (who take also in account the kind of paper you use).
NB : They are NOT working profile...

Are you sure it's a printer profile?
It's the colour profile embedded in raw files converted by the Epson R-D1 raw converter.
Like Nikon's here after conversion of a D70 raw file in Nikon Editor.
Are those ICC Profiles you're referring to?
Sorry for any confusion...

[cboudier]

You're right, it's not a printer profile ! (my mistake... EPSON is more known for printers :-)
... they look like working profile (sRGB & RGB)

The "normal" colour workflow is the following :
a1- just after opening you image, assign its profile (to correct the deviance)
a2- just after this, convert to a working profile.
This way, even if you don't embed any profile, the data in your photo are modified.

Or if your image is coming from a RAW file (and if your RAW converter manage colour correctly...) :
b1- open your RAW file in your RAW converter ; it assign automatically the right profile AND convert it to your working space (RGB, sRGB, etc.)
b2- when you save your developped image as TIFF or JPEG, embed the working profile (this just helps you to remember that this image has already been converted)

Remember than assigning (or embeding) a profile is just like a sticker. It does not change the data.
Converting from one space (or profile) to an other changes the data in the picture.

Try this :
- developp your RAW file and embed the profile as shown in your message
- open the saved file in PS and choose "remove the profile" :
if nothing change, then the conversion is already done by the RAW converter
if the colours change, then you have to keep the profile when you open your image, and to convert it in your working space