Maybe I shouldn't have....

jaapv · 07/26/08, 02:56 AM

In the context of another thread, I shot the DMR and the M8 side by side. No contest, the DMR won hands down...
So in the future there will be an R 10, not an M9 for me. Why should I, the M8 does all I would ever wish of a DRF, the best files will come from the R10.
So I decided to expand my R system with an Elmarit 28-R (II). But it also brought home to me how lacking in modern lenses the R system is. No 21 asph, 35 Summilux asph, 50 asph, 90AA...
The Photokina should really bring some R equivalents of the newer spectacular M lenses to remain viable.

wildlightphoto · 07/26/08, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaapv

No 21 asph, 35 Summilux asph, 50 asph, 90AA....

The late model 19mm Elmarit-R is spectacular, as is the E60 50mm Summilux-R even without ashpherics, and there is a 90mm AA in R mount.

farnz · 07/26/08, 11:03 AM

Sorry, Jaap, Doug's right of course ...

Leica Camera AG - Photography - LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-R 90 mm f/2 ASPH.

Pete.

georg · 07/26/08, 12:16 PM

What makes the DMR-files superior?
The electronics are VERY similar, most M-lenses are superior (to compare M8/DMR instead of lenses you could use the 90AA - same lens with both systems)!?

The color rendition is different because of the filters/coating and the RAW-converters have to be profiled correctly - but other than that, there should be barely any difference!?

stunsworth · 07/26/08, 12:27 PM

Different sensors, different firmware, 14 bit v 12 bit.

stnami · 07/26/08, 12:39 PM

...a hummn

andybarton · 07/26/08, 01:13 PM

Don't forget that you won't be able to stick green snakeskin on an R10

It's very interesting to hear you say this, Jaap - some of us have had this position for a long time

. I too am looking forward to Photokina

Georg - The firmware is completely different in the DMR from the M8 - they were written by two different companies. I think that it's the combination of the firmware and those two extra bits that make the difference.

wildlightphoto · 07/26/08, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stunsworth

Different sensors, different firmware, 14 bit v 12 bit.

The DMR is 16-bit.

jaapv · 07/26/08, 03:48 PM

I think the simpler microlens array is of influence as well. And of course I had forgotten a few lenses

But Leica needs to make a gesture of confidence at the Photokina.

earleygallery · 07/26/08, 06:06 PM

I doubt very much that we'll see any new R lenses until there's a new R camera to put them on, and we know that we're almost certainly not going to see an R10 this year.....

Jamie Roberts · 07/26/08, 06:21 PM

The thing for me is this, the DMR and M8 still look like a "family" and a portable DMR is a great thing to have. Also, the M8 is still better than the DMR at higher ISO, even with the last DMR firmware.

In practical use, there is not that much difference in the files.

But I agree too, that if you're looking closely or shooting under the right conditions, the DMR is the best non-MF system I've ever used... hands down, and especially for its colour rendition.

Jaap--I don't think the R line up is missing anything, actually. In addition to the mentioned lenses (the 50 lux is actually my favourite 50 of all time) and the 90 and the 19, the R system has a great 35 Lux, the 80 Lux (sigh) and the 180s--both Elmarit and 'cron are fabulous. The 100 macro is as sharp as anything in the M system. And then there's the other teles...

But my back, and my eye during certain things, still loves the M8. They're a nicely differentiated set of siblings, and I can't wait to see what happens in the next 2 years or so...

lct · 07/26/08, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by earleygallery

...we know that we're almost certainly not going to see an R10 this year.....

Andreas Kaufmann: 'You can be assured that to us it´s very clear what's going to happen with regard to the topic SLR. We´re developing a solution which we will present to the public.... This fall in Cologne you will be able to get a clue'... the new camera 'shall more than satisfy the needs of our customers'.

Xanax · 07/26/08, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lct

Andreas Kaufmann: 'You can be assured that to us it´s very clear what's going to happen with regard to the topic SLR. We´re developing a solution which we will present to the public.... This fall in Cologne you will be able to get a clue'... the new camera 'shall more than satisfy the needs of our customers'.

Very interesting!

ptomsu · 07/26/08, 08:05 PM

Having used a DMR for long time and a M8 since more than a year I always found and still find the M8 files superior to the DMR files. Maybe my subjective impression, but this is how I see it.

But I do hope the R10 (or however it will be called) will produce even better files.

jaapv · 07/26/08, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaapv

the M8 does all I would ever wish of a DRF.

Something we all agree on...

jaapv · 07/26/08, 08:15 PM

Two file, shot side by side,processed identical just size, nothing else.

M8 first DMR second
Lenses
M8 Elmar-M 2.8/50 (new type)
DMR Elmarit 2.8/60, both at 5.6,
both cameras at base ISO

luigi bertolotti · 07/26/08, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaapv

In the context of another thread, I shot the DMR and the M8 side by side. No contest, the DMR won hands down...
....

Gosh, Jaap... that's hard news coming from you...

... maybe I'm biased towards M line (never used Rs), but in the above pics I cannot find such an advantage for DMR (of course, there is the inevitable question of resizing for post, which surely "flattens" differences)... and I even prefer slightly the foliage rendering in the M8 shot... I suppose you had the UVIR on M8, right ?

jaapv · 07/26/08, 08:22 PM

100 % crops, M8 first:

gwelland · 07/26/08, 08:31 PM

Maybe I'm missing something but to my eyes the M8 crop looks better colour & detail-wise than the DMR - maybe due to slightly blowing out the highlights on the DMR shot?

Do you have a better example?

jaapv · 07/26/08, 09:15 PM

Sure-
First M8, then DMR

07/26/08, 02:56 AM	#1 (permalink)
jaapv Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 09/14/04 Location: Hellevoetsluis, Netherlands Posts: 7,031	Maybe I shouldn't have.... In the context of another thread, I shot the DMR and the M8 side by side. No contest, the DMR won hands down... So in the future there will be an R 10, not an M9 for me. Why should I, the M8 does all I would ever wish of a DRF, the best files will come from the R10. So I decided to expand my R system with an Elmarit 28-R (II). But it also brought home to me how lacking in modern lenses the R system is. No 21 asph, 35 Summilux asph, 50 asph, 90AA... The Photokina should really bring some R equivalents of the newer spectacular M lenses to remain viable. __________________ Jaap WWW.JAAPVPHOTOGRAPHY.EU Skype: JAAPVPHOTOGRAPHY

07/26/08, 11:03 AM	#3 (permalink)
farnz Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 02/28/06 Location: London Posts: 2,277	Re: Maybe I shouldn't have.... Sorry, Jaap, Doug's right of course ... Leica Camera AG - Photography - LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-R 90 mm f/2 ASPH. Pete. __________________ Eur. Ing. Pete F@rnsworth Live and let live.

07/26/08, 12:16 PM	#4 (permalink)
georg Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 09/25/02 Posts: 335	AW: Maybe I shouldn't have.... What makes the DMR-files superior? The electronics are VERY similar, most M-lenses are superior (to compare M8/DMR instead of lenses you could use the 90AA - same lens with both systems)!? The color rendition is different because of the filters/coating and the RAW-converters have to be profiled correctly - but other than that, there should be barely any difference!?

07/26/08, 12:27 PM	#5 (permalink)
stunsworth Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 09/30/02 Location: Manchester Posts: 8,714	Re: Maybe I shouldn't have.... Different sensors, different firmware, 14 bit v 12 bit. __________________ Steve Website - www.steveunsworth.co.uk Picture a week - http://www.steveunsworth.co.uk/PAW_blog/?page_id=9

07/26/08, 12:39 PM	#6 (permalink)
stnami Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 04/01/06 Location: back'n ward017 Posts: 4,513	Re: Maybe I shouldn't have.... ...a hummn __________________ “doi knia” ETROUKO slide shows http://www.artouko.com/

07/26/08, 01:13 PM	#7 (permalink)
andybarton Moderator Join Date: 06/21/06 Location: Airstrip 1 - 53°17'N, 03°04'W Posts: 8,679	Re: Maybe I shouldn't have.... Don't forget that you won't be able to stick green snakeskin on an R10 It's very interesting to hear you say this, Jaap - some of us have had this position for a long time . I too am looking forward to Photokina Georg - The firmware is completely different in the DMR from the M8 - they were written by two different companies. I think that it's the combination of the firmware and those two extra bits that make the difference. __________________ Cheers, Andy __________________________________________________ ___ 2008 Website content updated: 19 October 2008 Auschwitz section added: 19 October 2008

07/26/08, 03:48 PM	#9 (permalink)
jaapv Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 09/14/04 Location: Hellevoetsluis, Netherlands Posts: 7,031	Re: Maybe I shouldn't have.... I think the simpler microlens array is of influence as well. And of course I had forgotten a few lenses But Leica needs to make a gesture of confidence at the Photokina. __________________ Jaap WWW.JAAPVPHOTOGRAPHY.EU Skype: JAAPVPHOTOGRAPHY

07/26/08, 06:06 PM	#10 (permalink)
earleygallery Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 06/29/06 Posts: 3,100	Re: Maybe I shouldn't have.... I doubt very much that we'll see any new R lenses until there's a new R camera to put them on, and we know that we're almost certainly not going to see an R10 this year..... __________________ Regards, James www.earleygallery.com

07/26/08, 06:21 PM	#11 (permalink)
Jamie Roberts Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 07/09/06 Location: Cambridge Posts: 2,524	Re: Maybe I shouldn't have.... The thing for me is this, the DMR and M8 still look like a "family" and a portable DMR is a great thing to have. Also, the M8 is still better than the DMR at higher ISO, even with the last DMR firmware. In practical use, there is not that much difference in the files. But I agree too, that if you're looking closely or shooting under the right conditions, the DMR is the best non-MF system I've ever used... hands down, and especially for its colour rendition. Jaap--I don't think the R line up is missing anything, actually. In addition to the mentioned lenses (the 50 lux is actually my favourite 50 of all time) and the 90 and the 19, the R system has a great 35 Lux, the 80 Lux (sigh) and the 180s--both Elmarit and 'cron are fabulous. The 100 macro is as sharp as anything in the M system. And then there's the other teles... But my back, and my eye during certain things, still loves the M8. They're a nicely differentiated set of siblings, and I can't wait to see what happens in the next 2 years or so... __________________ James H (Jamie) Roberts Site: James Roberts Photography Blog: Photography behind the scenes

07/26/08, 08:05 PM	#14 (permalink)
ptomsu Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 12/16/04 Posts: 4,099	Re: Maybe I shouldn't have.... Having used a DMR for long time and a M8 since more than a year I always found and still find the M8 files superior to the DMR files. Maybe my subjective impression, but this is how I see it. But I do hope the R10 (or however it will be called) will produce even better files. __________________ Peter Life is an ever changing journey! - P. Tomsu Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. - A. Einstein

07/26/08, 08:31 PM	#19 (permalink)
gwelland Erfahrener Benutzer Join Date: 03/01/04 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 616	Re: Maybe I shouldn't have.... Maybe I'm missing something but to my eyes the M8 crop looks better colour & detail-wise than the DMR - maybe due to slightly blowing out the highlights on the DMR shot? Do you have a better example? __________________ Graham Last edited by gwelland : 07/26/08 at 08:34 PM.

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