Dye sub printers?

[dalippe]

It is only sporadically that I find myself with enough time to work on making prints. Because of the long periods away from printing, I often end up spending lots of time and ink unclogging my Epson R800 before I can even get started. For whatever it is worth, I have also been disappointed with detail rendition in shadows on this printer.

Lately I've been wondering if a good dye sub printer would be better for many of my applications. For those images that I am willing to print on simple glossy or matte paper at smaller sizes, what is the consensus on the current quality of the better dye sub printers vs. inkjet? In particular, if I'm willing to buy a good dye sub, am I sacrificing, gaining or breaking even in:

1) Consistency and predictability of color rendition compared to the soft proofs I see in PS
2) Range of available colors
3) Resolution and detail
4) Detail rendition in shadows
5) Detail rendition in highlights
6) Anything else you think I should worry about but haven't included in my list

Thanks in advance for any information and/or opinions.

David

[malland]

I started with a Kodak 8500 dye sub printer and replaced it with a Fuji Pictrography 4000, whose print quality was better, but prints from the latter turned green after six months in a hot and humid environment. I now have an Epson 9800, whose print quality is subsyantiall better than the Kodak dye sub or the Fuji Pictrography printers. So, yes, I think that you would be sacrificing substantially in terms of quality by going to a dye sub printer. There is a reason that so many people use more inkjet printers than dye subs,

—Mitch/Bangkok
Flickr: Mitch Alland's Photostream

[wmyowell]

I have used HiTi Dye sublimation printers for years. There is no fading and the quality is outstanding. An added benefit is that a drop of water on the print doesn't ruin it. Of course the printer I have is just for 4x6 inch prints, but they are very handy.

So I disagree completely with the opinion above.

Bill Yowell

[Baxter]

I bought a Mitsubishi 9550 about 3-4 months ago. Like all printers, it works best with a custom ICC profile. The results with this are much better than the off-the-shelf profiles/settings. Thus highlight and shadow detail are retained with my custom setting. I haven't a clue about Dmax, I suspect that the dye-sub is worse, but the images do have impact. Soft-proofing is fine in CS3 and also in Aperture.

This type of printer is ridiculously quick and prints are much cheaper compared with an inkjet. Switch machine on, print and you are finished before the inkjet has woken up from a cleaning cycle! However there are advantages to the inkjet which I tend to use for images I am going to frame. Not least size, whereby I am restricted to 9x6 inch on the Dye-sub. There are other printers which do larger sizes. Resolution and detail is fine, dominated by output sharpening settings - can be easy to overcook - just like any other output device.

[dalippe]

Any recommendations for a good place to do some comprehensive research about dye sub printers? Casual searching on most photo forums leads to extensive discussion of inkjet printers and/or specific discussion of particular dye sub models. It seems hard to get a good lay of the land for dye subs.

Thanks!

David

[dalippe]

Originally Posted by Baxter

I bought a Mitsubishi 9550 about 3-4 months ago. Like all printers, it works best with a custom ICC profile.

Baxter,

By custom profile, you mean one of your actual printer rather than the one provided by the manufacturer? Did you buy hardware to profile your own printer?

David

[pierovitch]

I have a few dyesub prints on by test wall exposed to normal office fluorescent lighting and ozone from laser printers. The Sony and the Kodak prints fade even with the protective coating film. The latest ones might be better but so are the latest dye inkjets.
The HP photoprinters using dyes are good.
something like HP Photosmart D7260 Printer using the HP02 ink set gives great colour and B&W. The dyes are stable so far for over 18 months. The HP has no clogging of the heads when left for over a month unused unlike the epson pigment printers.
The Epson 1410 dye is running well with no clogging but its too early to predict reliably.
The new epson Claria dyes look good.

[Baxter]

Hi David

Yes I printed out the colour patches and sent them off to get a custom profile built. Since the printer is so quick and prints are instantly dry, this is far less hassle than for an inkjet printer. There are a number of settings to vary in the printer set-up such as speed (all pretty rapid) and colour look-up table. My custom profile worked best with all of these set to zero, quite different from the manufacturers recommended settings for their own ICC profiles.

Not sure where you are based, I am in the UK and found this website invaluable to put into context system insight they are quite local to me, so I went along, saw the printers operating and made my choice. At the time, this was limited since I use a Mac. Since then the Mac divers have been announced for the new HiTi model. System Insight had one of these, it looked good and slightly higher spec, but I erred with for a proven model whcih Mitsubishi are still keeping in their line-up. HiTi

It is hard to find solid research, but I did find out that some manufacturers re-badge the Copal C U S A C K ~ P H O T O for which Mac and Vista drivers have been announced so this added to the choice.

I should add to my original post, the relatively high cost of a dye-sub printer compared to an inkjet.

[dalippe]

Originally Posted by Baxter

Hi David

Yes I printed out the colour patches and sent them off to get a custom profile built. Since the printer is so quick and prints are instantly dry, this is far less hassle than for an inkjet printer. There are a number of settings to vary in the printer set-up such as speed (all pretty rapid) and colour look-up table. My custom profile worked best with all of these set to zero, quite different from the manufacturers recommended settings for their own ICC profiles.

Not sure where you are based, I am in the UK and found this website invaluable to put into context system insight they are quite local to me, so I went along, saw the printers operating and made my choice. At the time, this was limited since I use a Mac. Since then the Mac divers have been announced for the new HiTi model. System Insight had one of these, it looked good and slightly higher spec, but I erred with for a proven model whcih Mitsubishi are still keeping in their line-up. HiTi

It is hard to find solid research, but I did find out that some manufacturers re-badge the Copal C U S A C K ~ P H O T O for which Mac and Vista drivers have been announced so this added to the choice.

I should add to my original post, the relatively high cost of a dye-sub printer compared to an inkjet.



Thanks for the info. That is a good start. Alas, System Insight would be quite a hike for me from NY

[santila]

Be careful about the terminology. Dye and dye-sub printing is two different medium.
I did print through the Fuji Pictography 3500 that isn’t not really a dye-sub printer since it
uses water to transfer the image from a donor to a receiver.

I also have the Kodak 1400 Ektatherm (discontinued) what is a true dye-sub printer, using
a film with three color layer and a protective layer on the top for protection.

Also I have the HiTi PS 730 (only prints up to 8x6”), great printer and its is a dye-sub
printer of the latest technology just like the Kodak 1400.
Recently I choose and have on order the Fuji ASK 4000, a through dye-sub and very well
built printer. It will print 8x10” and 8x12” on the “ fly” without changing ribbon and
paper. The Sony 7000 will also do the same thing but Sony had problem with their
earlier batch that was recalled and now been the problem was fixed according to my latest
information.

I would like to point out that all these latest printer are made by Copal where upon it is
Fuji, Sony, Mitsubishi, Shinko etc. then the individual companies do their slight
modification for the roll and film size.

I do recommend either the Fuji ASK 4000 or the HiTi PS 730, it depends on the size you
would like to print to.
You can find more info below on these sites.

NIDEC COPAL CORPORATION OFFICIAL SITE - Photo Equipment Systems -

Advanced search :: Imaging Spectrum
.html

Sony UP-GR700 Digital Roll Printer (UP-GR700) :: Photo Printers (Dye Sub) :: Printers :: Imaging Spectrum

[santila]

On the above discussion I think some of the information is not correct. Dye based
printers are prone to fading and not the dye-sub prints. Dye-sub is a continuous tone
technology while dye or inkjet printing is sprayed on by various paint pigments.

[dalippe]

Originally Posted by santila

Be careful about the terminology. Dye and dye-sub printing is two different medium.
I did print through the Fuji Pictography 3500 that isn’t not really a dye-sub printer since it
uses water to transfer the image from a donor to a receiver.

I also have the Kodak 1400 Ektatherm (discontinued) what is a true dye-sub printer, using
a film with three color layer and a protective layer on the top for protection.

Also I have the HiTi PS 730 (only prints up to 8x6”), great printer and its is a dye-sub
printer of the latest technology just like the Kodak 1400.
Recently I choose and have on order the Fuji ASK 4000, a through dye-sub and very well
built printer. It will print 8x10” and 8x12” on the “ fly” without changing ribbon and
paper. The Sony 7000 will also do the same thing but Sony had problem with their
earlier batch that was recalled and now been the problem was fixed according to my latest
information.

I would like to point out that all these latest printer are made by Copal where upon it is
Fuji, Sony, Mitsubishi, Shinko etc. then the individual companies do their slight
modification for the roll and film size.

I do recommend either the Fuji ASK 4000 or the HiTi PS 730, it depends on the size you
would like to print to.
You can find more info below on these sites.

NIDEC COPAL CORPORATION OFFICIAL SITE - Photo Equipment Systems -

Advanced search :: Imaging Spectrum
.html

Sony UP-GR700 Digital Roll Printer (UP-GR700) :: Photo Printers (Dye Sub) :: Printers :: Imaging Spectrum

Thanks for the great information. I found the ASK-4000 and HiTi PS 731 at B&H (I assume this is more or less the same as the 730, which I didn't find?).
The HiTi looks like a very good opotion. The ASK-4000 is more than I was looking to spend, but just for my own education I do have one question about it. The print sizes listed are 8x10 and 8x12. Does this mean that if one wanted to make, for example, a 4x6 print, then he would have to print on 8x10 paper and then cut out the photo from the larger paper? Or would smaller papers also be available onto which one can print?

Thanks.

David

[santila]

Yes, on the ASK 4000 need to use an 8x10" sheet to print one 4x6". There is ASK 2000 that will print smaller size. However if use QIMAGE program it would be able to print 4ea-4x6 print on the ASK 4000 or 4ea-4x5" prints mixed frames.

TheHiTi also can print directly from cards. The 731 is probably an improved version so they can jack-up the price.
You find more info here from the HiTi:
HiTi