Erwin Puts' M8 Review - Part 1

[ken_tanaka]

Michael Reichmann's Luminous Landscape site today pointed toward Erwin Puts' M8 Review, apparently the first of two parts. It's the first actual test review I've seen so far.

There's nothing in it that I found surprising. But it is an interesting read.

[sthan]

Leica insisted that the current version of the program should not be
used for reviewing image quality yet.
I don'tknow if it's just a commercial gimmick or a true claim.
We better wait for an exhaustive review when all things are settled.

[pascal_meheut]

See

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/dig...ts-review.html

for an older thread on this subject

[marknorton]

Does anyone believe this stuff about the camera being made in Portugal? My reading of Leica announcements was that Portugal was being developed into a specialist contractor which did not necessarily only do work for Leica. It's possible that elements of the M8 are made there (and nothing wrong with that) but they clearly place value on the "Made in Germany" label. As do I.

[waterlenz]

Originally Posted by marknorton

Does anyone believe this stuff about the camera being made in Portugal? My reading of Leica announcements was that Portugal was being developed into a specialist contractor which did not necessarily only do work for Leica. It's possible that elements of the M8 are made there (and nothing wrong with that) but they clearly place value on the "Made in Germany" label. As do I.

No! Mark, I suspect you are correct!

[georg]

When a Leica-product mainly comes from Portugal it say's "Made in Portugal", when Canada, "Made in Canada", when China "Made in China" and when most of the work was done in Germany it is... right: "Made in Germany"... Leica never tried to trick customers by the country of origin.

Some parts of the M are still made in Portugal, the original plan to catch up with the japanese companys in price with production plants in lower labor cost countries (Portugal and Canada) failed a long time ago (as it usually does) - then they decided to make only highest quality products for highest prices, "Made in China"-compact cameras disappeared, lens production went back to Germany and Portugal mostly makes parts and accessoires.
Top plates were made of zinc die-cast in Portugal, now they are made at much higher prices from massive brass by a german company (in Germany). You see, it's a little bit different than Adidas or Apple ;-)

Leica once mentioned the creation of value be Germany for the R8 with more than 70% - that's sounds reasonable for all "real" Leicas.

[waterlenz]

Originally Posted by georg

When a Leica-product mainly comes from Portugal it say's "Made in Portugal", when Canada, "Made in Canada", when China "Made in China" and when most of the work was done in Germany it is... right: "Made in Germany"... Leica never tried to trick customers by the country of origin.

Some parts of the M are still made in Portugal, the original plan to catch up with the japanese companys in price with production plants in lower labor cost countries (Portugal and Canada) failed a long time ago (as it usually does) - then they decided to make only highest quality products for highest prices, "Made in China"-compact cameras disappeared, lens production went back to Germany and Portugal mostly makes parts and accessoires.
Top plates were made of zinc die-cast in Portugal, now they are made at much higher prices from massive brass by a german company (in Germany). You see, it's a little bit different than Adidas or Apple ;-)

Leica once mentioned the creation of value be Germany for the R8 with more than 70% - that's sounds reasonable for all "real" Leicas.

BTW, the Japanese companies also have factories outside the home country. Nikon comes to mind. They have a factory in Thailand that builds complete cameras. Whereas a lens might be made in Japan, the lens shade might be made in China - this is the case with their new 105VR lens.
Tom

[stnami]

"but they clearly place value on the "Made in Germany" label. As do I"
Really how one dimensional is a mind of that nature
yea you can't let other nationals get their grubby hands making leica parts, can we???)))))(()))>)))

[guy_mancuso]

I was told without question MADE IN GERMANY . Except the sensor kodak . This also includes the firmware for the M8. Which BTW IS Jenoptik.

[roberth]

it has nothing to do with "grubby hands", it has to do with controlling quality, if it is closer to your head office it is easier to control.
Look past your own problems of where things are manufactured, my own products are manufactured in Australia so that I can drive down the road and make sure the guys building them make them the way I want.

[adan]

Erwin has pulled all the 'illegal' sample shots made with beta firmware, and also the comments that accompanied them.

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by adan

Erwin has pulled all the 'illegal' sample shots made with beta firmware, and also the comments that accompanied them.

I guess the boys from Solms have been in touch ;-)

[stnami]

"Made in Australia" not much these days we are not a manufacturing nation anymore

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by ken_tanaka

Michael Reichmann's Luminous Landscape site today pointed toward Erwin Puts' M8 Review, apparently the first of two parts. It's the first actual test review I've seen so far.

There's nothing in it that I found surprising. But it is an interesting read.

It's the first test of file quality (on an early preproduction camera no less) you've seen because the rest of us have honored Leica's request to not publish on this aspect until we can test cameras with final firmware.

Cheers,

Sean

[marknorton]

I've always found Erwin a bit of a wind-bag and am pleased the results have been removed. Sean has simply said that the results do not disappoint so if he's not disappointed, it's unlikely I'm going to be.

BTW, I went searching for a Moire menu selection on the M8 such as there is in the DMR but could not find one. Sounds like their detection and correction of Moire is now sufficiently smart to not need the user to intervene.

As regards place of manufacture, I expect Portugal no longer provides the cost advantages it once did since they joined the EU. Erwin clearly stated the camera is made in Portugal, and I don't believe it.

[rosuna]

Is Phase One the co-developer of the M8?
I thought it was Jenoptik.
Can anyone clarify this point?
R.

[georg]

@waterlenz

You're right, and other industries have already shown what consequences this behaviour has. First they loose the direct "connection" to the production (other languages...) than they invest very much money into the new facilities from the money they make with their home-faciliites while these become more and more ineffective (less production, money compensation), then they get quality problems (communication, low-experience workers with low wages) and then they need to build a new facility in India, because chinese workers got too expensive and it starts again...

Canon and Panasonic will most likely win this game, because they don't act this short-sighted - they partly understood that they have to pay high wages, that even glbal player needs a "Heimat" to guarantee high quality, innovation and independence not only for the next year but also for the next decades

In Germany it's not much different, companies that were wise and consequent enough to hold on to their workers become more and more powerful (even when they had a pretty hard time while customers still thought the cheaper brands were still quality) while others lost the game, they lost customers confidence, technology and independency (outsourcing).

Everybody can copy technology, with strict quality control you can achieve decent qualty all over the world - but that's not what this whole thing is about.
Every music-student can cover beatles songs - does this mean he is the new John Lennon? Why are high-labor-cost countries superior in technology? Who is buying all that stuff "made in China"?

Uff, that' pretty tough: discussing about complex themes in english - I'm stopping here ;-)

We should talk about the M8 again, mainly "Made in Germany" and nearly 100% "Made with high labor costs".... :-)

[roberth]

stnami, you are correct, the politicians in Oz have done us no service, but I hang on making everything I design here in Australia to make sure the knowledge base stays as long as it can.

[rosuna]

Made by Phase One and Leica or by Jenoptik and Leica?

[frc]

Made by Phase One and Leica and Jenoptic and Lego.
What's the point, let's wait for hi-res pictures shown to us.
Seems far more important to me than the brand-names on the various parts.