Some News (or Rumor) About R10

[lct]

What do we need actually aside from great lenses most of them we already have (or which already exist) and a wider dynamic range that new sensors will give us tomorrow?
Responses to this question could determine the way to follow by Leica.
My own response is: a large and bright viewfinder allowing manual focussing with the same ease and accuracy than with a film body.
Other responses?

[wildlightphoto]

Originally Posted by lct

a large and bright viewfinder allowing manual focussing with the same ease and accuracy than with a film body.

Make it an SL-quality viewfinder and that's the primary feature I'd like to see in addition to what the DMR offers me.

[Saloti]

Citation:
Mr. Daniel from Leica told us some interesting things:

R-System:
- No new R lens at photocina
- R9 still in production (on low level)
- autofocus may come (manual focus is not a dogma for leica)

We had many questions, but no concrete info about a new digital R Camera.

This is from a French thread, the German user Forum confirms this information
after the Meeting last weekend.

Apparently we will have to wait for a R10 another year, maybe with the help of
Jenoptik they will make it.

As it was said in this thread: The challenge to do it right with a DSRL R10 is
much higher than with DRF M8, R10 will have to face fiercest competition.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by lct

Responses to this question could determine the way to follow by Leica.
My own response is: a large and bright viewfinder allowing manual focussing with the same ease and accuracy than with a film body.
Other responses?

I don't trust my eyes ... give me a decent focus confirmation.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by Saloti

R10 will have to face fiercest competition.

There's one thing Leica can do ... STAY WITH MANUAL FOCUSING ... and they'll have ABSOLUTELY NO competition.

[rosuna]

No competition and no future...
Even no present...
The manual system is the M system. One such system is enough for Leica.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by rosuna

No competition and no future...
Even no present...
The manual system is the M system. One such system is enough for Leica.

Ok, I'll take a step back ... leaving an auto focus R10 for whoever wants to buy it, can they also build a full manual SL10?

Doug will sign up first and I'll come second.

[rosuna]

Nikon cameras are very good AF cameras, and provide perfect support to manual focus lenses... (including electronic focus confirmation).

The question about the future R system is not manual versus AF, but what format and design to adopt, IMHO.

[sdai]

I have no problem with Leica building another camera with any format - round or square - but:

As a current owner of the R system, a mount/format change is beyond my expectation, if Leica could handle it in the way as Nikon did in their transition from Ai-S to AF-I, AF-D and AF-S, then I can accept it.

[paulmoore]

Originally Posted by sdai

I have no problem with Leica building another camera with any format - round or square - but:

As a current owner of the R system, a mount/format change is beyond my expectation, if Leica could handle it in the way as Nikon did in their transition from Ai-S to AF-I, AF-D and AF-S, then I can accept it.

what if they did come out with a new larger squarer format.. with a new mount..AF new lenses no backward compatibility.. what if? would you go away? what, maybe 75% of previous R users gone? so what?, 75% of a few thousand.. gone.. and how many new customers would they be opening themselves to? Many more than this!!
Now I am not advocating this, I think if they can, they will make the old lenses work, buy them some time until the system catches on and they expand the family of AF lenses.. I would prefer to use my manual focus lenses.. but would be part of the 25% that would still try out the new mount and system. My hopes are for better viewing.. (I get it now doug) and at least half again the megapixels..with more square sensor real estate. If they really loved me they would make the new mount adaptable to hy6.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by paulmoore

what if they did come out with a new larger squarer format.. with a new mount..AF new lenses no backward compatibility.. what if? would you go away? what, maybe 75% of previous R users gone? so what?, 75% of a few thousand.. gone.. and how many new customers would they be opening themselves to? Many more than this!!.

How big is the "larger than 35mm format" market? I have no exact number. I only know that Pentax dropped their plan to introduce the 645 Digital even when they already have a fully working model because they found it's not worth their effort to pursue.

Leica must have very close relationship with Hoya, the new owner of Pentax, now they would explain why bigger and squarer is not so hot.

Speaking of auto focus ... haven't many of us already had Canon, Nikon, Minolta, Sony, Olympus, etc.? if AF is important, why would people switch to Leica? are you expecting Leica to have better AF performance than any of the above?

Staying with 35mm and manual focus, these are all the easiest things that Leica can do as the best ... if Leica concedes as no. 2, nobody could boast to be no. 1.

Haven't you seen people dumping the latest and greatest Canon 1 series and turning to the almost primitive M8?

If it's done right, many folks will switch from AF to MF if not able to afford both.

[Riley]

this square format thing, i dont think it will run, for one thing theres the mirror

at 43.3mm diagonal the sides would be 30.6mm for an area of 937 sq mm
lets say at the smallest you went for 95% VF
so you need a mirror with around 29mm coverage
the diagonal of a mirror with 29mm coverage is 41mm
as the register of the R lens is just 47mm, there is just 6mm for the shutter and the mount
when the mirror is up there wont be enough room

forget square format for an SLR, it doesnt exist for a reason
Leica have tradition here in 3x2, i think they will stay with that
but a 4x3 with a 43.3mm diagonal 34.64x25.98mm frame is 900 sqmm a gain of 36 sqmm
even that probably wont run if the lenses have baffles

[thrid]

Originally Posted by wildlightphoto

Make it an SL-quality viewfinder and that's the primary feature I'd like to see in addition to what the DMR offers me.

Make it an SL-quality viewfinder, with a big round, high eyepoint eyepiece
;-)

Ever since I started to shoot with a Nikon, the whole square eyepiece no longer makes sense to me, because I realised that my eyeballs were round...

[leicar7]

High eye-point implies smaller apparent viewfinder magnification. I do not favor that any more for a MF system. The mag on the R8/R9 is already too small (0.75x), compared even to the R4-R7 series.

The smaller the apparent magnification of the view, the lower the accuracy of using the contrast (microprism) focussing.

I strongly favor a return to the 0.80x of the R4-type cameras, or, better, the 0.86x of the SLs. My first impression in looking through an R8 years ago was how small the image looked. It still does, and my focussing accuracy has suffered somewhat.

For glasses wearers, I apologize. But there has to be a trade off somewhere, unless the vf can include a variable mag adjustment. I'll vote in favor of focussing accuracy every time.

[hankg]

Is it physically impossible to get to 1.0X mag in an SLR? The E3 is 1.1 I believe but it's a half size sensor. That would really set a Leica DSLR apart. The VF's on DSLR's have been so horrendously bad. They are improving but still not close to the SL.

Middle of the pack AF plus the best VF and manual focus in the field would be a good position for Leica.

[mjh]

Originally Posted by hankg

Is it physically impossible to get to 1.0X mag in an SLR? The E3 is 1.1 I believe but it's a half size sensor.

The viewfinder of the E-3 is 1.15x which roughly corresponds to 0.58x in 35 mm terms. The Nikon D300 viewfinder is 0.94x, corresponding to 0.63x. The EOS-1Ds Mark III has 0.76x magnification; a much larger magnification wouldn’t really be practical.

[Riley]

E3 rewrote the rules on OVF sizes to an extent, as it is a size beyond the sensor size

Olympus 410/510..............0.44
Panasonic L10..................0.44
Olympus E-330.................0.44
Nikon D50/D70 ................0.48
Olympus E-1....................0.48
Nikon D40/D40X ...............0.51
Canon 20D/30D................ 0.53
Canon 40D .......................0.56
Olympus E3 .....................0.575
Canon 1D mk III................ 0.58
Nikon D200 ......................0.60
Nikon D300 ......................0.63
Canon 5D..........................0.68
Canon 1Ds....................... 0.70
Nikon D3...........................0.70
Canon 1Ds Mk III.............. 0.76

E3 achieves this by magnifying the image from the mirror at the bottom of the prism, it then being necessary to rock the prism forward to provide enough view behind the prism. As E3 is a 100% finder that makes the most of its small dimensions, and the magnification factor of 1.15x where others are variously 0.95x doesnt hurt either. My own has a 1.2x Pentax mag finder on it, making it just larger than 5D [0.575x1.2=0.69].

This is one area where Leica can and should do better than the rest, offering a 100% finder that is bright will assist MF. Good auto iso is another, where you can set the aperture for the dof you want, and shutter to the speed required, let the camera figure out the rest, that has to be a bonus for wedding photogs and enables the shooter to concentrate on composition and focus

[Mantice]

Leica need innovation to expand/growth. Any company will die if they cannot bring something that satisfy demands.

I challenge Leica for that aspect, as a customer. If they prefer to stay with their comfort zone and do nothing other than holding their "reputation" I have no regret to end the relationship.

The choice is their's. What ever they do (mount change, sensor size, reduce/increase quality control, etc) they better know what their doing and the enviroment/customer needs they're facing today.

This has nothing to do with "existing" product they made. I will use whatever excellent product avaliable today; besides, there's enough spare lenses/3rd party interest for me fool around just like Zeiss MM series. (in more/less extend)