Some News (or Rumor) About R10

[sdai]

Originally Posted by Willem van Beers

Beautiful all these rumors but I would be more interested in a new firmware update for the DMR solving many of the still existing problems.

What problem is still bugging you with the DMR, Willem? IMO 1.3 is the last firmware for the discontinued product and there's no reason why hasselblad will continue to help a potential competitor in the medium format digital back market.

[rosuna]

I hope Leica isn't thinking on a superexpensive camera (20,000 euros) and Hasselblad as the reference. This would be a suicide. Mamiya is offering 9,000 euro cameras, and they and Hasselblad are under strong pressure due to Canon/Nikon/Sony full frame DSRL lines.

Leica should be offering something "different", expensive but reasonable, this is, a R10 full frame 35mm system, with autofocus lenses, R mount and maybe a modular design. Hasselblad isn't the model to follow, and that market already is controlled by them... The Rollei/Sinar/Leaf equally expensive "open" system isn't a treat to Hasselblad, and only Mamiya can do something helped by Phase One, and agressive prices.

Think on this scenario for 2008 and 2009: Canon, Nikon and Sony will have full frame offerings for less than 3000 dollars, in addition to more expensive cameras... Hasselblad and Mamiya will have problems. Leica cannot introduce a new system as expensive as that of Sinar/Rollei/Leaf thinking on how to beat Hassel.

I am a bit worried.

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by sdai

Photoscala quotes an "reliable" source speaking that Leica is certainly going to bring a DSLR to the Kina '08, it's not a mockup and will soon be available after the show.

However, their source could provide no further detail, they can only guess it'll sport a 35mm FF sensor with more than 15 megapixels which might be named "R10" based on Leica's naming convention.

Leica R10 digital in der Pipeline | photoscala

Picture shows a R9.

Well, this is not really something new! And this was also confirmed by Dr. Kaufmann himself, without giving free any further detailed information - other than it will be at PK2008.

Given the usual delays before this beast hits the shelves of stores the availability might be around Xmas 2008 - earliest. And given the issues they usually have bringing new digital high end products to some 85% function means another 6 - 8 months.

So in the end of the day I am not going to buy an R10 (if I decide to do at all) before summer or autumn 2009.

But I urge you all to buy the first samples, because then you make the real development work instead of guys like me

[marknorton]

I posed as an interested DMR buyer at a London dealer on Saturday and, FWIW, they told me the R10 is coming at Photokina, manual focus, M8 price, backwards compatible with R lenses. After a slightly boozy lunch, I forgot to ask if full frame...

The dealer had lots of secondhand film Ms but, worse, there was nobody else in the shop, times are hard for retailers...

[rosuna]

Valentín Sama writes about this subject... in Spanish...

Acerca de la fotografía. Técnica, estética y opinión

R.

[offshore]

Originally Posted by AlanG

That's very funny...

Alan where did you get the photo of the R10?

[rosuna]

A new 36x36 format and a competitive price below 10,000 euros would be a much better idea than a Hasselblad-priced Leica...

[rick_dykstra]

Originally Posted by rosuna

A new 36x36 format and a competitive price below 10,000 euros would be a much better idea than a Hasselblad-priced Leica...

I would love an R10 that was 36x36 format. Full frame would be good enough, but the flexibility for wildlife shooting that comes from square format would be a huge advantage. And all other kinds of shooting.

Don't care about autofocus. Do care about backwards compatibility with all my R gear. And do care about focal plane accuracy, which should be OK with a dedicated digital body. The DMR has suspect back focussing with long lenses in my experience.

Show me where the cue for a full frame or more R10 is and I'll line up.

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by rosuna

A new 36x36 format and a competitive price below 10,000 euros would be a much better idea than a Hasselblad-priced Leica...

But a 36x36 format would also require a new set of lenses. I think Leica need to offer some kind of backwards compatibility for lenses to get current R photographers interested.

[marknorton]

Indeed, the largest square format they could introduce and still fit inside the 36*24 image circle is 30.59 mm.

[rosuna]

Kaufmann said "larger than 35mm".

Kodak makes a 36x36mm CCD sensor (16MP... Hasselblad uses it for the V series).

The compatibility with R lenses can be easy: a mere crop, as Nikon does with DX and FX formats in the D3.

I cannot imagine how could be a camera like this, with square format. Like a normal 35mm reflex? Similar to a medium format modular camera? A modular design similar to a Rollei Hy6 but much smaller and cheaper would be a great idea. The Hy6 is the only square format (56x56mm) system out there... (Hassel and Mamiya are 4:3 based on cropped 645).

But now comes the price... Hasselblad H or Hy6 prices are crazy... Leica should think on prices similar to those of Mamiya (the "new" Mamiya 645AFDIII is affordable). The competition pressure comes from Nikon/Canon/Sony even if you offer something "different".

[stunsworth]

In that case the only way existing lenses could be used would be by electronically cropping the output of the sensor to allow for the smaller than optimum image sensor - something I believe Nikon currently do if an 'APS' lens is used on the D3.

[lct]

Originally Posted by rosuna

Kaufmann said "larger than 35mm"....

Which is the definition of medium format if i'm not wrong.
WWS (Weird, Wait and See)

[sdai]

10000 Euro is US $15600 based on today's rate.

Hasselblad sent me an email yesterday, they're running a promo for the H3DII-31 combos (that's including a 80 standard lens) in the US till Aug.31, all inclusive price is US $ 17995 before negotiation.

So a 36x36mm noobie camera (barebone without lens) for 15600 US, or a 33x40mm proven medium format system for $18000?

The choice is simple to me.

Square format is a HUGE waste of photo sites when it comes to digital imaging, most prints crop to 2:3 or 4:5 aspect ratio. If you crop to 2:3, you waste 33.33% pixels at least, if you crop to 4:5, you waste 20% from bottom line.

If Leica adopts 36x36, the R lenses won't work even in the Nikon style crop mode. because the huge mirror will push the lens away from the focal plane and they'll never focus properly and only function as an extension tube for macro photography.

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by sdai

If Leica adopts 36x36, the R lenses won't work even in the Nikon style crop mode. because the huge mirror will push the lens away from the focal plane

They could always have a mirror that moved backwards as it flipped up.

Or they could use one of those pelicule (sp) mirors and do away with moving parts all together.

I'm making this up as I go along as you can probably tell.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by stunsworth

They could always have a mirror that moved backwards as it flipped up.

Or they could use one of those pelicule (sp) mirors and do away with moving parts all together.

I'm making this up as I go along as you can probably tell.

If the mirror flips backwards then it's going to slam on the sensor unless of course Leica could move the CCD further back, pellicle mirror sucks big time ... it may work to a certain degree as long as they could figure out with exposure compensation.

But, all I care about is the compatibility of my R lenses, if they don't take care of that then I'm no longer bond to their products.

[ALUX]

No matter whether you use a mirror or pellicle, the flange distance of the lenses will always increase if you increase the sensor size vertically. The mirror (or semi-reflective plane in the pellicle) has to be inserted into the optical path in a 45° position. A mirror / pellicle for the 36x36mm format will not fit in. Its a matter of geometry.

Best regards,
Alex

[rosuna]

A good idea for a new product, well implemented from a technical and manufacturing point of view, may result in a failure if the price is unreasonable.

[rosuna]

To be as good as Hasselblad at a lower price... that is the idea of Mamiya, and Pentax...

The only difference may be in the size and ergonomy: to design a 35mm-like camera for a 36x36mm format instead of a big camera originally designed (lenses, mount, etc.) for 645 or even 6x6 format (Mamiya, Rollei, Hassel).

[lct]

Who would pay 10,000 (€ or $) to get a 36x36 (?) digicam when we can have a full frame 24x36 for 4,000 or even 3,000 folks? There is no future for Leica if the R10 is significantly dearer than the (already expensive) M