Noise level with future M8 and Noctilux?

[albertwang]

Okay, thanks Guy for the M8 info (I still find it interesting that it's called a M8 which suggests Leica now considers digital integral to its programme woohoo!). Anyways, the question is now whether the f1 lens at full aperture will be able to reduce the noise level on the sensor relative to pushing the ISO? I think that it's an awesome possibility short of using the Canon plus f1 L 50mm lens with 5D? A comparison here is in order.

[Dirk Van der Herten]

R-D1 + Nocti at f1.0 at 1600 ISO.
The grain is not that bad, and it would be surprizing
if the M8 would not be much better than the R-D1.
Best,
Dirk

[guy_mancuso]

I can comment on te noise level with the DMR at ISO 400 it is very good and at ISO 800 it is workable and maybe a program like Noise Ninja does help here. Now given relatively the same sensor as the M8 and Dmr i would at least expect the same if not better and I really believe it will be a stop better than the DMR because leica will want that because for were mostly the M is used is a lot of low light stuff plus the fact the M8 has a different firmware vendor this looks like great

[martinb]

I really hope the M8 is a stop better than the DMR. This is a rangefinder camera for street photography and photo journalism and good high ISO will be important for many potential buyers. I want to see pro's use it and not only a bunch of rich amateurs.
If it has good high ISO it will probably be the best available light camera because it's a rangefinder camera and you have access to some great and really fast lenses.

[albertwang]

For me, high ISO performance is a must. It's not as big a deal with the R8/R9 outfit but the M8 must deliver well in this regard without losing much details.

[MP3]

Yes, definitely one of the most anticipating thing to have good workable ISO 800, especially when R-D1 can do it. Though I believe it's a real challenge for Kodak sensor... wait and see.

BTW can we predict that, workable ISO upto 400 means better Lux sales and resales, while workable ISO upto 800 shall promote Crons.

Matthew

[like_no_other]

An image stabilizing system would have a much higher impact on a camera which was promoted all along as THE camera for available light photography.
Imagine - noctilux, excellent ISO 1600 (possible with the given sensor size), image stabilizer (sensor based) that gives three extra stops.

I hope that Leica was smart enough ...

Philip

Panasonic is SO smart - not Leica. Leica is a prisoner in tradition.

[bradreiman]

i mostly use iso 50 and 100 film and they seem sufficient in most situations with noctilux. i suppose a couple more stops would be nice. im especially excited about 8000th shutter speed to use open aperture in daytime without nd etc....b

[fotografz]

Software will have as much to do with noise as the sensor and in-camera processing itself.

Imacon just release a new beta version of Flexcolor that improves the ISO 400 captures from the MF digital backs ... and includes many corrective features for DNG files previously not applied during transfer. I ran a test and the ISO 800 files from the DMR showed some improvement over previous ones @ 800.

[albertwang]

That's true but is image processing going to work out the noise levels? I tend to be a hands off approach because I'm always worried about introducing artifacts unless it's art photos I'm working on. Then anything goes!

[FastFashnReloaded]

Originally Posted by like_no_other

An image stabilizing system would have a much higher impact on a camera which was promoted all along as THE camera for available light photography.
Imagine - noctilux, excellent ISO 1600 (possible with the given sensor size), image stabilizer (sensor based) that gives three extra stops.

I hope that Leica was smart enough ...

Philip

IS takes more power and that means more weight (battery and all the other c___). Do you want a minimalist camera, or a Cxnon xD?

I never needed IS with my RFs.

[albertwang]

What is the point of having IS on a camera with a Noct? After all, we hopefully aren't trying to shoot the dark (or the breeze) here eh?

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by FastFashnReloaded

IS takes more power and that means more weight (battery and all the other c___). Do you want a minimalist camera, or a Cxnon xD?

I never needed IS with my RFs.

Agree, but IS on the other side gives a lot of new potential!

[rvaubel]

Originally Posted by MP3

Yes, definitely one of the most anticipating thing to have good workable ISO 800, especially when R-D1 can do it..
Matthew

I pray the M8 will have at least the same low noise as my upgraded RD1. Working at ISO 800, almost no noise reduction is necessary and ISO 1600 is very workable especially in B&W. I have a number of fast lenses and I would be disappointed if I was limited to ISO 400 for indoor available light situations. In my opinion, Leica needs to have the very best discrete, low light camera in the market. That is a niche that is theirs to lose.

Rex
BTW:Epson proved that firmware can make a critical difference. The upgrade improved my RD1 by at least a stop. Beats my 20D now.

[MP3]

Originally Posted by rvaubel

I pray the M8 will have at least the same low noise as my upgraded RD1. Working at ISO 800, almost no noise reduction is necessary and ISO 1600 is very workable especially in B&W. I have a number of fast lenses and I would be disappointed if I was limited to ISO 400 for indoor available light situations. In my opinion, Leica needs to have the very best discrete, low light camera in the market. That is a niche that is theirs to lose.

Rex
BTW:Epson proved that firmware can make a critical difference. The upgrade improved my RD1 by at least a stop. Beats my 20D now.

I too pray for that. Many of us are waiting for the M8 and are ready to pay a higher premium for its legendary M-body workmanship and proven long term service. But as a shooter more than a collector, I may go for the R-D1 instead if the upcoming M8's ISO performance is just mediocre or even below what we expect. Leica M is supposed to be one of the best non-obstrusive available light system, and it should always retain its unique position in this niche, IMHO.

Best
Matthew

[albertwang]

Indeed. The Noct ought to be a most wonderful tool for low light work. I'm just wondering what the noise reduction that Leica is using is going to function. After all you can get a lot of noise even if you not shooting 1600 ISO but for longer exposure. If they can reduce the noise for 30 seconds exposures I'm sure we will have a winner instantly on our hands.

[rvaubel]

Originally Posted by MP3

Many of us are waiting for the M8 and are ready to pay a higher premium for its legendary M-body workmanship and proven long term service. But as a shooter more than a collector, I may go for the R-D1 instead if the upcoming M8's ISO performance is just mediocre or even below what we expect. Leica M is supposed to be one of the best non-obstrusive available light system, and it should always retain its unique position in this niche, IMHO.

Best
Matthew

Thats my opinion too. I have a perfectly good RD1 that I am completely happy with (no QA problems). It does everything I want and would be happy to continue on down the RD line if there was one. However, seeing Epson's almost complete lack of commitment to their product, does give one reason for pause.
The Leica solution seems like an ideal one, although expensive. That being said, I already have a ton of "M" glass so I'm more than willing to bite. However, I would be very dissappointed if in the quest for quality and support, I'd have to give up the usefulness of higher ISO values.

Maybe, I should just buy a couple O' more RD bodies and wait for the second coming.

Rex

[like_no_other]

Sorry to disappoint some of you

All IS/AS Systems available on the market with sensor sizes of APS or larger support available/low light photography better than any Leica M without a stabilizing system.


<<Leica M is supposed to be one of the best non-obstrusive available light system, and it should always retain its unique position in this niche, >>

Once upon a time this was true but times have changed.

Philip

[lct]

Originally Posted by like_no_other

...<<Leica M is supposed to be one of the best non-obstrusive available light system, and it should always retain its unique position in this niche, >>
Once upon a time this was true but times have changed....

Really?
Which would be the the best non-obstrusive available light system according to you, Philip?