Nikon D3 files (through ISO6400)

[jrc]

Originally Posted by sean_reid

Sure, but for a fair comparison, imagine the M8 with a Zeiss 21/4.5 or CV 21/4.0P. Cheers,

Sean

Sean,

Actually, I'd like to see a fair comparison, but I'm not a testing guy. If you'd like to do a test, I'd be happy to loan you the K10 and three primes to put up against the Leica...just for sake of seeing what's what.

JC

[billh]

http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2007/archives/571

Although I didn’t get a chance to shoot with the Nikon D3 during the morning shoot, I spent hours with it tonight at our dusk shoot, and I have to say; not only does it live up to it’s hype, I’d have to say it actually exceeds it. There are a lot of things to love about the D3, but the lack of noise is far beyond what I had ever imagined (and I had heard stories of people raving about the low noise, but you’ve really got to see it in person to believe it).
I haven’t done any lab research on this, just some field shooting yesterday and today, but when I look at images shot at 1600 ISO on the D3, they look images taken on my D2x at 400 ISO. You just can’t believe what you’re seeing. Bill did a demo for the class last night, and even showed images shot at 6400 ISO and there were literally gasps in the room at the low levels of noise. You’ve gotta understand; this isn’t just an improvement in the noise and detail—this is way beyond that. Without sounding corny (though it still will), this is like a new dawn in the digital camera era, and now I can see where noise will soon be a non-issue. I was fully expecting to be impressed with the D3’s low noise, but I honestly wasn’t prepared for this. I was blown away. We all were.
Some other things I quickly fell in love with was (of course), the huge 3? LCD panel, which is the crispest and brightest I’ve never seen (even the menus looked great), and the full frame View Finder is just fantastic. During the day I kept uncovering new features, and everybody was ooohh and ahhhing over it, and the more I shot it, the more I fell in love. It’s got more slick, well-thought out features, than you can imagine, and I know I’m gushing, but….I’m just gushing!!! Bravo to Nikon for making a camera that is just a joy to shoot (the feel of the shutter is amazing), that is smart (it holds two memory cards at once; and has a double battery charger as well), and takes some amazingly sharp, crisp, low noise photos.

[sandymc]

Originally Posted by billh

Photoshop Insider » Sunrise shoot at Glacier Nat'l Park

Although I didn’t get a chance to shoot with the Nikon D3 during the morning shoot, I spent hours with it tonight at our dusk shoot, and I have to say; not only does it live up to it’s hype, I’d have to say it actually exceeds it. There are a lot of things to love about the D3, but the lack of noise is far beyond what I had ever imagined (and I had heard stories of people raving about the low noise, but you’ve really got to see it in person to believe it).
I haven’t done any lab research on this, just some field shooting yesterday and today, but when I look at images shot at 1600 ISO on the D3, they look images taken on my D2x at 400 ISO. You just can’t believe what you’re seeing. Bill did a demo for the class last night, and even showed images shot at 6400 ISO and there were literally gasps in the room at the low levels of noise. You’ve gotta understand; this isn’t just an improvement in the noise and detail—this is way beyond that. Without sounding corny (though it still will), this is like a new dawn in the digital camera era, and now I can see where noise will soon be a non-issue. I was fully expecting to be impressed with the D3’s low noise, but I honestly wasn’t prepared for this. I was blown away. We all were.
Some other things I quickly fell in love with was (of course), the huge 3? LCD panel, which is the crispest and brightest I’ve never seen (even the menus looked great), and the full frame View Finder is just fantastic. During the day I kept uncovering new features, and everybody was ooohh and ahhhing over it, and the more I shot it, the more I fell in love. It’s got more slick, well-thought out features, than you can imagine, and I know I’m gushing, but….I’m just gushing!!! Bravo to Nikon for making a camera that is just a joy to shoot (the feel of the shutter is amazing), that is smart (it holds two memory cards at once; and has a double battery charger as well), and takes some amazingly sharp, crisp, low noise photos.

M9 = M8 plus this sensor????

Please, please Leica?????

Sandy

[billh]

Sandy, I was thinking exactly the same thing when I read this today. I'm sure the software comes into play too, but hopefully Leica can make a big improvement for their next generation of cameras. I use the M8 whenever possible, but sometimes I will resort to the 1Ds2 for use with high ISOs.

[okram]

M8 is no worse at high iso than my 1ds2.

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by sandymc

M9 = M8 plus this sensor????

Please, please Leica?????

Sandy

Do you really want strong vignetting? DSLR sensors don't do too well on rangefinders, especially in the larger sizes....Let's hope Leica does better than that.

[sandymc]

Originally Posted by jaapv

Do you really want strong vignetting? DSLR sensors don't do too well on rangefinders, especially in the larger sizes....Let's hope Leica does better than that.

You're right - realistically, you couldn't use this exact sensor. Although it does appear to have offset microlenses (reading between the lines of the press releases anyway), they would be at the wrong angle for the M8. But I sure would like that high ISO performance. Imagine that plus a Nocti.......

Sandy

[billh]

Originally Posted by okram

M8 is no worse at high iso than my 1ds2.

Either you have a very bad 1Ds2, or I have an awfully crummy M8!

[fotografr]

Originally Posted by billh

Either you have a very bad 1Ds2, or I have an awfully crummy M8!

Compared to the way these files look, ALL other digital cameras are crummy. The stuff is mind boggling.

I'm sure Canon will be out with something comparable very soon.

[billh]

Originally Posted by fotografr

Compared to the way these files look, ALL other digital cameras are crummy. The stuff is mind boggling.

I'm sure Canon will be out with something comparable very soon.

Brent, what? Are the 1D3 and 1Ds3 this free of noise, or is there something else lurking out there? There certainly are some interesting cameras coming onto the market.

My interest in the D3 is for the high speed AF and motor drive, especially for low light and low contrast subjects moving quickly. This is an area where Canon has always been weak, and there appears to be no resolution in sight for the AF issues of the 1D3 (nor even an acknowledgment they exist). There is an interesting comment on the issue here,

http://www.naturescapes.net/phpBB2/v...c.php?t=112118

The 1Ds3 uses the same system - it may (or may not) use a slightly different algorithm, but if the 1D3 has these problems, the 1Ds3 will likely also have issues.


When is Photokina? That would seem a logical time for Leica to announce any new camera they may be making. Image quality has certainly seen some dramatic changes/improvements in the past few years. It seems somewhat analogous to the computer industry, when they constantly come out with higher spec models. Can image quality keep improving like the capacity of computers? What will cameras and lenses be like 20 years from now?

[Riley]

just an aside, iwonder if they are using ISO SOS or ISO REI
wtf arethey i hear you say
well it seems Canon have a new standard for iso measurement that differs from what we are all used to. And just to make it perfectly clear what you are looking at, they named it ISO !

You will perhaps see ISO SOS or ISO REI next to sample images. The use of ISO REI (recommended exposure index) and ISO SOS (standard output sensitivity) throws yet another curve to negotiate. In reference to another Canon camera Doug Kerr reveals the truth to Canon iso performance, you can bet all future iso measurements revealed by Canon will be corrupted with these false measurements.

Doug Kerr notes the following
"I note that on the Canon USA site, in the specifications for the EOS 40D, the "ISO" sensitivity range is identified (by footnote) as being in terms of "standard output sensitivity" [SOS] and recommended exposure index" [REI].

Note that this means that the "ISO" numbers cited in the various literature on the 40D are not "ISO speed" ratings (as we typically assume) but rather refer to these new alternate (ISO) measures. You may have read my earlier explanations here of this.

In recent correspondence in another forum, Chuck Westfall of Canon USA intimated that Canon's actual policy now is to designate these "ISO" settings in terms of REI values (but not also as SOS values). I think that they had earlier intended to designate them as both (which is an allowable possibility), and the change in policy did not yet flow through to all the documentation.
You can read more about this matter here:
ISO standard output sensitivity and recommended exposure index in the 1D Mk III - Open Photography Forums

[sdai]

Originally Posted by billh

My interest in the D3 is for the high speed AF and motor drive, especially for low light and low contrast subjects moving quickly. This is an area where Canon has always been weak,

I'm not sure where you've got it but this is totally wrong, Bill. Now I'm going to show you a lab test conducted in Japan ...



When there's no contrast, every camera just failed. Now just check the hit rate ... the D2X and D200 are even worse than Canon's lowest end model the 350D. The 350D has a 90% hit rate and D2X D200 scored zero at 50:53.

I'm not going to comment on 1D3 because I've no final info on it but the fact is, there're many happy campers out there without any complaint at all. Making the loudest noise doesn't make somebody naturally right.

[carstenw]

Originally Posted by sdai

I'm not sure where you've got it but this is totally wrong, Bill. Now I'm going to show you a lab test conducted in Japan ...

IMG

When there's no contrast, every camera just failed. Now just check the hit rate ... the D2X and D200 are even worse than Canon's lowest end model the 350D. The 350D has a 90% hit rate and D2X D200 scored zero at 50:53.

I'm not going to comment on 1D3 because I've no final info on it but the fact is, there're many happy campers out there without any complaint at all. Making the loudest noise doesn't make somebody naturally right.

Simon, that last point ought to be something you are familiar with

Anyway, you didn't answer his point. He said "low contrast, low light, high speed". You came back with "low contrast". Back to the drawing board.

[billh]

Originally Posted by sdai

I'm not sure where you've got it but this is totally wrong, Bill...:

I got this from my experience shooting many, many thousands of images like this one with the 1D2 and 1Ds2 over the past couple of years (I bought them as soon as they came on the market). A huge percentage of these Canon shots are out of focus (using the 70-200 f2.8IS and 300 f2.8IS). Those which are in focus (again a small percentage), require the placement of a single AF point of a rapidly moving face. My memory of the Nikon F5 is this was never an issue, and the people I have talked with who have owned both the 1D2 and the Nikon digitals have the same experience as me. I am shooting the F5 and the 1D2 together this weekend, and I have a rental D2X reserved for the weekend of Oct. 5th. I have both a D3 and 1Ds3 on order. If the Oct. 5th images bear out what I suspect, I’ll buy the D3 and give it a try. I deferred on the 1D3, and may pass on the 1Ds3 too. This is the only area giving me problems, and I would dearly love to find a solution.

As far as people being happy with their 1D3 - yes, I read those posts. Many of the people are coming from D20s, and they are not shooting the type of things I am talking about. For car races and people sports, my 1D2 is fine - I have no problems whatsoever. Chuck Westfall still tells me he has heard nothing from Japan about the 1D3 focus problems, and many profession sports photographers are having significant issues with the 1D3.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by carstenw

Anyway, you didn't answer his point. He said "low contrast, low light, high speed". You came back with "low contrast". Back to the drawing board.

I have many more test data, Carsten ... if I post them all in a public forum, I may end up with lot of problems. LOL

[sdai]

Originally Posted by billh

I got this from my experience shooting many, many thousands of images like this one with the 1D2 and 1Ds2 over the past couple of years (I bought them as soon as they came on the market). A huge percentage of these Canon shots are out of focus (using the 70-200 f2.8IS and 300 f2.8IS). Those which are in focus (again a small percentage), require the placement of a single AF point of a rapidly moving face.

Bill, I've no doubt that you're a great photographer ... any equipment may shine in your hands, keep in mind the AF of Canon and Nikon work in many different ways, perhaps Nikon is simply better for you.

[billh]

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...hread=24986989

[rosuna]

The M8 is good at 160 and 320 ISO, and variable at 640 ISO (depending on the subject and the exposure parameters). And consider that the M8 isn't a camera with a base ISO of 100, like the DMR. The base ISO of 160 explains to some extent the apparent better performance of the M8.

These performance levels are OK for the 2004-2006 period, but not top-notch. The Canon 5D, for instance, is a much better performer in terms of noise and set the standard for any competitor.

In 2007-2008, the new generation of CMOS sensors from Canon (1D3, 1Ds3, future 6D) and Nikon/Sony (D3, future Alpha FF) have raised that standard. This fact pose problems to Leica and the future R10. There are many parameters that need improvement: resolution, noise, energy consumption. All we know Leica cannot, should not, compete against Canon or Nikon in total frames per second and such, but the basic parameters for image quality cannot be in 2008 too far from those accepted as the standard performance in the high end of the market. Sure the CCD Kodak-based solution of the DMR and M8 is good, but...

[sdai]

The 1D Mark 3 has 15% higher pixel density than the D3 so it's not a surprise that the Nikon can match or exceed its high iso performance.

The trick is doing per pixel NR at the hardware level and cooling off the sensor effectively. It's a shame that Canon hasn't patented everything now Sony can be a copycat.

[rosuna]

Originally Posted by sdai

The trick is doing per pixel NR at the hardware level and cooling off the sensor effectively. It's a shame that Canon hasn't patented everything now Sony can be a copycat.

That means CMOS, isn't?