M8 or X vario or T - which one is good for a first leica?

[srivastava]

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Dear Leica users,

 

I am faced with a slight dilemma about which way to go with my first purchase.

 

I am an amateur and shoot 70% auto focus and 30% manual focus. I am looking for an all round camera that would let me shoot family get togethers and a bit of street photography. I am not in to shooting sports, etc and a fast camera is not a must. I do like some low light usability but not fussed about it.

 

I currently use a panasonic DMC L1 with the PL zoom lens or Olympus legacy OM lens (28mm and 50mm...both manual). My travel camera is the panasonic GX1 with PL 25mm f.1.4 lens.

 

I intend to sell the above kit and buy a Leica. I want to own a Leica and the M8 and X Vario interest me. I am more inclined towards the X Vario as it a nice all rounder with auto focus as well. The high f number does not bother me. My budget is around £2000.

 

I can get a used M8 with a good M lens for about that money, I think. I have not used a range finder before but seems like I can use it.

 

I am going to the Leica store for handing the Vario in June as they have a 2 hour hands on session with the Vario.

 

The T has cropped in to the mix due to the price and the possibility of interchangeable lens'. I do not mind the touch screen as it seems to work out well based on online reviews.

 

With the above in mind, if I am toying towards the X vario , is that a reasonable decision?

[Virginia Bill]

Certainly the X Vario would be a reasonable choice for you. It's a well-made, well balanced camera, tempting even to someone (me) who already has an M8, several lenses to go with it, and a Digilux 2. It offers a zoom lens, autofocus, and excellent high ISO performance, all of which the M8 lacks.

 

But the M8 is a rangefinder, and some people (me, for example) prefer using a rangefinder most of the time. Part of that preference is probably nostalgia for the way photography used to be in the days of film; any lens without an aperture ring seems to me defective. But another part of my preference is for the slower pace of rangefinder work: choosing the right focal length; finding the right distance from the subject for the framing I want; choosing my aperture; determining exposure; focusing; and finally pressing the shutter. All that is more *interesting* than twisting a zoom ring and firing off ten autofocus frames.

 

The M8 is an aging camera, and its age shows clearly in narrower performance perameters (especially poor high ISO performance). Also, I don't think the price of M8's has quite bottomed out. But it's still a really lovely camera. I can't bring myself to pay the difference a used M9 would cost.

 

All that said, I'll probably buy a used X Vario one of these days, simply because it's a more versatile camera.

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[srivastava]

Certainly the X Vario would be a reasonable choice for you. It's a well-made, well balanced camera, tempting even to someone (me) who already has an M8, several lenses to go with it, and a Digilux 2. It offers a zoom lens, autofocus, and excellent high ISO performance, all of which the M8 lacks.

 

 

 

The M8 is an aging camera, and its age shows clearly in narrower performance perameters (especially poor high ISO performance). Also, I don't think the price of M8's has quite bottomed out. But it's still a really lovely camera. I can't bring myself to pay the difference a used M9 would cost.

 

All that said, I'll probably buy a used X Vario one of these days, simply because it's a more versatile camera.

 

Thank you. You seem to have echoed my thoughts.

[luigi bertolotti]

X Vario is in a phase of street price dropping... which makes it a natural and tempting choice : but, if you think to broaden a bit your horizons, I'd think seriously to the T : with the 18-56 zoom, it costs more than the X, but you buy into a system which, by any evidence, will play a role in the future of Leica.

M8 is a risky choice in many senses : not cheap, need lenses (even if one can buy some good CV not too costly) , typically unwarranted by seller... and a way of shooting you aren't accustomed to... indeed is still an excellent camera (my one, after 7 years of no heavy use, works perfectly), but for a newbie to M system can be a matter of lucky :

- One can get in love with the "M Way" and find an M8 that serves him for +5 years

- One can get SO in love with the "M Way" that after one year jumps to M240

- One can not appreciate fully the "M Way" and feels the need to buy a different camera, with a M8 that has further depreciated in the meantime

- Same as above, but with a "unlucky" used M8... which has failed in the meantime and can be costly or impossible to repair/resell.

[Guest]

The X Vario is incredibly versatile with its stunning zoom lens. It seems to have much better dynamic range and high ISO performance compared to the M8, which I also considered as my first 'real' Leica.

 

The XV also handles extremely well and is a delight to use. Output is 100% Leica and will "wow" you and others. The zoom lens and sensor combo make it extremely versatile. It's like having 4 proper Leica lenses: 28, 35, 50, 70. That would be rather costly to replicate with a used M8 setup.

 

It is also liberating to have such a high quality zoom and not needing to change lenses. The XV's built-in flash and leaf shutter extend its versatility even more.

 

The T also rocks and is even more versatile, having interchangeable lenses, but it is in a different price league comparatively.

 

A used XV is priced around the same as the T zoom alone. That makes a used XV a tremendous value, especially when you consider that the XV and T share the same sensor and their zoom lens (and final output) are similar.

[dkCambridgeshire]

For £2000 you should be able to source an M8 with an older 50mm Summicron and a Leica X1 ... latter will take care of low light photography. And some prefer the X1 IQ to that of the X2. If you can find a reasonably priced X1 it should hold its value better than an XV.

 

dunk

[tobey bilek]

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70& auto focus means the M8 will not satisfy you as it is strictly manual focus. You will need the uv/ir cut filters to get near correct colors. Then you need to get coded lenses as you can not manually specify the lens mounted with that model. Colors are still a bit weird, so now you need to profile the camera. It is full of color noise that my Define 2 does not handle well (color is speckles of different color dots).

 

It took me two years to learn to make this camera work to my satisfaction. The M9 works right from the box.

 

Unless you are into HIGH QUALITY home quality printing or deal with a pro lab, Leica will not benefit you one bit. Every link in the imaging chain has to be strong. One weak one ruins it all. So that means photoshop and calibrated monitors. High quality ones to boot. Cheap prints are like discount tires on a Rolls Royce.

 

Leica low cost models are not lifetime quality investments like the old film Leicas. Just look at the model history.

 

I would suggest an M9 or keep what you have unless you are willing to jump through all the hoops to make a M8 work and that includes processing. You really need to know what you are getting into. I also use Nikons, pro ones, and Leica does not display a great jump in quality from them. Leicas advantage is the rangefinder concept and you either like it or not. Not counting the S models which start around $35,000 and are considered medium format.

 

Nobody told you of the down sides, but nobody can say I am wrong. We will see after this is up for a while.

[JeTexas]

I would avoid the M8. It is quite slow compared to your other options, and many of them are having issues that are no longer serviceable.

[srivastava]

Thank you all for some wise suggestions. I think I know the M8 is not for me at this stage. I am leaning towards the XV.

 

I am going to the London Mayfair store in June and will handle both XV and T & take a call.

 

Will let you know what I went for and post some pics . Will be buying by 20th June hopefully:-)

[colonel]

The M8 is a totally different kind of camera from the XV and the T

It's acuity and sharpness at base ISO is stunning and if it absolute IQ you want, with the right Leica lenses it will deliver something above the other two.

The downsides are bad ISO performance above base (160), the need for expensive Leica lenses to realise the IQ (although zeiss is an option) and getting used to RF focus. Which I absolutely love, even for kids, but it depends on the individual.

The M8 requires you to know about photography and discover the true meaning of light including shutter, aperture and focus. If you are serious about photography and want to learn its really the best system to get into.

 

However if you want automation and are not particularly bothered about being in control and something of Leica IQ then the T and XV are good choices.

 

The advantage of the T is interchangeable lenses, a touch interface (personal taste) and all metal build if you like that.

However if you are mostly shooting in the 28-70 range for me the XV is a better choice. I like the dial system more then touch, the shutter is silent, new prices are shooting down and second hand prices are less then half the T plus zoom lens. Plus from what I have seen todate the XV lens seems sharper, slightly better made (just my view after using both cameras) and has a closer focusing distance.

 

Ultimately it's up to you.

 

Lastly, and heretically, you might find a combination of cameras meets your needs. I find the XV pared with a good low light camera, eg the RX1 or X100s, a pretty good combination.

I suppose however I am a bad example, loving the XV, M240, A7, RX1 and GM1.

Just a regular polygamist

[jankap]

+1.

For the purposes you mention, I would go for the XV. It would be flexible enough.

The T used for family photos would be the camera with the zoom lens only. Then you have a XV too, more or less.

The feature of changing lenses means more weight to carry, more handling and more sensor dust marks.

The M-line still is another league.

Jan

[wda]

Thank you all for some wise suggestions. I think I know the M8 is not for me at this stage. I am leaning towards the XV.

 

I am going to the London Mayfair store in June and will handle both XV and T & take a call.

 

Will let you know what I went for and post some pics . Will be buying by 20th June hopefully:-)

I have M8 and XV and X1 but have no intention of buying into another system camera like the T system. Based on my experience and your leanings, I am sure you will find the XV meets all of your popular requirements ,,, and more. Close up is good; quiet operation; all-in-one neat package. Do let us know how it works out for you.

[enboe]

Welcome to the Leica users club - stop by and share your stories any time.

 

I concur with your approach of looking at the items first. May I extend that by suggesting you rent an M-series camera with your likely focal length? See if you like the work flow. I found the M challenging for the first several weeks as my muscle memory focusing had not yet been programmed in my head. Once you get over that, the camera is very fast to use, and of course there's always hyperfocal operation.

 

The limitations of the M8 are well understood and documented. Using a hot mirror (uv/ir) filter is as easy as putting on a UVa. Only the most obscure combinations of lens/hood/filter/light source produce a reflection, and any filter would also produce a reflection. Another advantage of the M8 sensor is it gives you some reasonable options for shooting IR. Your sensitivity is around 6 stops below the visible spectrum, but it's very usable, especially on sunny days. The other models give you no such possibilities. As for 10MP being "enough", that's up to you.

 

On the lifespan of the M8, my 3 cameras are all working 8 years into ownership. I had one shutter replacement, free of charge, one SD card slot repair, free of charge, and one top assembly replacement due to dropping, repaired for a fair fee. Leica has stepped up to the responsibility plate in supporting these cameras, and seeing you get fair market towards a current model if they are unrepairable. I would consider that safe money.

 

I am confident the XV and T are fine tools as well, I just don't have personal experience. I do own an X1, and it's a fine machine, just a little slow in the AF department.

 

Happy shooting.

 

Eric

[dkCambridgeshire]

I would avoid the M8. It is quite slow compared to your other options, and many of them are having issues that are no longer serviceable.

 

Errrm … Just how many is 'many'

 

There are thousands in use without any problems

 

dunk

[Lee Martin]

Bear in mind leica can't /won't service the M8 for much longer as they regard the bodies as being disposable after about 5 years . The XV is having to be reduced in price in various countries so it might be worth shopping around. Photokina will have some interesting products this year that will make certain products look rather dated re specification, so I'd be tempted to wait for that .

[srivastava]

Could not wait to try it till mid June as came across one that was only 11 months old with over a year of Passport remaining and unregistered Lightroom, so bid for it and WON it!!!

Decent price ...should be getting it on Wednesday....can't wait :-)

[pop]

Bear in mind leica can't /won't service the M8 for much longer as they regard the bodies as being disposable after about 5 years . ....

 

This happens not to be the case. There is no statement by Leica that the M8 is not being serviced any more. There is indeed a statement that they have run out of spare LCD panels and therefore will not be able to repair the display of an M8.

 

Leica does not regard the M8 as being disposable.

[Lee Martin]

This happens not to be the case. There is no statement by Leica that the M8 is not being serviced any more. There is indeed a statement that they have run out of spare LCD panels and therefore will not be able to repair the display of an M8.

 

Leica does not regard the M8 as being disposable.

We'll they are hardly going to publicise the fact are they ?

[pop]

We'll they are hardly going to publicise the fact are they ?

 

Will you please quote your evidence?

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[jaapv]

Bear in mind leica can't /won't service the M8 for much longer as they regard the bodies as being disposable after about 5 years.

This is simply untrue. Leica strives for full serviceability for at least ten years after end of production - by public statement- (barring disasters like the M8 LCD, when they will provide a fair option) and will probably be able to part-service for much longer.