Will R10 too expensive for me?

[telyt]

Originally Posted by paulmoore

I never used the sl so I don't know what I'm missing...

Then I suggest you educate yourself!

Originally Posted by tummydoc

.. But again, the current R market has been quite vocal about their reasons for choosing R, expressing distaste for auto-focus, anti-shake, and other accoutrements of what they frequently insinuate are crutches for the lazy and inexperienced. .

Speaking only for myself, absolutely false and an excess of unwarranted assumptions!! What I've been expressing a distate for is the needlessly counter-intuitive user interface that comes with these features, the counter-productive degradation of manual focus capability that has accompanied every AF camera to date, and the optical compromises inherent in the optical forms of image stabilization. I find the body-based motion stabilizing features to be a big step in the right direction particularly since it can be combined with a dust-removal system at startup. If an AF system can be designed such that the AF point can be chosen at ANY point on the screen, not just the manufacturer's chosen points, I'll listen - this has the potential to eliminate my objections to AF, particularly if the focus point is read directly off the sensor, not the current practice of reading through a secondary system. Optical image stabilization and existing forms of AF are crude kludges. Leica can do better.

[robsteve]

Originally Posted by tummydoc

But again, the current R market has been quite vocal about their reasons for choosing R, expressing distaste for auto-focus, anti-shake, and other accoutrements of what they frequently insinuate are crutches for the lazy and inexperienced.

I think you may be misreading the distaste for AF. If it works well I am all for it as long as it doesn't affect the lens image quality.

The main draw for us R users is the simplicity of the user interface, not whether there is AF or not.

With the DMR, if I want mirror prefire, I just need to move a switch. If I forget to turn it off, I do not need to take the camera from my eye to go through a Custom Function menu, I just have to turn the switch off. Exposure bracketing and multiple exposures (film) are other example of switches rather than programming custom functions.
It is little things like that combined with the superior optics that brought a lot of us to the Leica R from our Canons and Nikons. I don't know much about the Nikons, but with the Canons, you needed a manual to figure out the custom functions. With Leica it is all just switches which are labled.

[hamey]

The main draw for us R users is the simplicity of the user interface, not whether there is AF or not.

With the DMR, if I want mirror prefire, I just need to move a switch. If I forget to turn it off, I do not need to take the camera from my eye to go through a Custom Function menu, I just have to turn the switch off. Exposure bracketing and multiple exposures (film) are other example of switches rather than programming custom functions.
It is little things like that combined with the superior optics that brought a lot of us to the Leica R from our Canons and Nikons. I don't know much about the Nikons, but with the Canons, you needed a manual to figure out the custom functions. With Leica it is all just switches which are labled.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more Robert.

One of my buddies, picked up his Canon 40D last week, hasn't used it yet.
He wont tell me why, perhaps he is still reading his operation Manual.

And for those Persons or person who got offended by the word "WANK"
In this country Australia, A wanker is a term used to a description of
"SOMEONE WHO GETS OVER EXCITED OVER NOTHING"
I am sure it's not intended as vulgarity, unless you have a WARPED MIND. and thinking of something else.


Cheers.

[earleygallery]

Originally Posted by hamey

And for those Persons or person who got offended by the word "WANK"
In this country Australia, A wanker is a term used to a description of
"SOMEONE WHO GETS OVER EXCITED OVER NOTHING"
I am sure it's not intended as vulgarity, unless you have a WARPED MIND. and thinking of something else.

Nothing to do with warped minds it's just cultural differences. Wank in the UK also refers to being over excited just a tad more literally. Aussies say they Root for their football team - say that over here and you'd get quite a reaction! Tell someone you're Rooting for them and they just might punch you!

Part of the joy of an international forum like this.

[stunsworth]

And let's not even begin to discuss the different meanings of 'fanny', 'suspenders' and 'rubber' on either side of the Atlantic <grin>

[paulmoore]

[quote=telyt;349560]Then I suggest you educate yourself!


have you ever looked through a 5x7 graflex viewing hood?, now that is a viewfinder,
I have looked through enough finders to know what I like and what I can work with..
as I'm sure you have, I think you are more firmly established in your use of 35mm and have found what you like, great, I think I can have an opinion about future finders without any experience on the sl, I hope the r10 looks as big as my rollei prism..again wishful thinking...my point on the r10 is obvious and I think we agree really, make the finder as
bright and big as possible, and your point on the af is good, be able to move the af point of focus around to where you want.

[tummydoc]

Originally Posted by robsteve

I think you may be misreading the distaste for AF.

Really?.....

Originally Posted by telyt

Optical image stabilization and existing forms of AF are crude kludges.

I rest my case


Good-natured ribbing aside, I don't think anyone would disagree that AF and VR can be improved. I think there might be a bit more disagreement over the probability that Leica could be the one to do it, given that virtually all of their electronics and technology has been outsourced That's not to say Canon and Nikon have the monopoly on innovation. I happen to think Pentax's solution to anti-shake is positively brilliant. Having moveable lens elements/groups and a motor to move them, in each lens, to me always seemed to be doing it 'the hard way'. As for AF, I imagine the placement of sensors through-out the screen area wouldn't be the biggest issue. That would be finding an effective means for the photographer to manually select the one or ones desired. One would have to have exquisite hand-eye co-ordination to be that precise with a joystick (rather like using a DaVinci surgical robot, a task with an enormously steep learning-curve I assure you). Perhaps an improvement on Canon's erstwhile Eye-Control...if they can find a way to do it without directing an IR beam at one's retina

[telyt]

Originally Posted by tummydoc

As for AF, I imagine the placement of sensors through-out the screen area wouldn't be the biggest issue. That would be finding an effective means for the photographer to manually select the one or ones desired.

A trackball on the back of the camera operated by the right thumb. And the image capture sensor in live view mode doubles as the AF sensor so there are no focus-calibration issues and the AF sensor placement is software-driven: the focus point is ANY (x,y) coordinate on the sensor.

[tummydoc]

Originally Posted by telyt

A trackball on the back of the camera operated by the right thumb.

That would work splendidly for me, as I have exquisite hand-to-eye motor skill and co-ordination, and perhaps you and many others do likewise. It might be a challenge for all who no longer do, or never did...or simply happen to be left-handed In the latter case perhaps with the viewfinder centred left-to-right and the LCD centred below it, the trackball could be housed in a shroud that could simply be popped off, rotated 180 degrees and replaced, thereby positioning the trackball to the left of the LCD.