OK Leica- R10 digital fact or fiction Tell US!

[rgfenn]

It is time for Leica to come clean and let us know if a digital R10 is going to be a reality. Holding off and not making a press release makes not sense. Leica does not have to worry about affecting R9 sales as they have halted production.

Both Nikon and Canon have just announced their newest models and still no news from Leica AG. Leica fans, retailers and other sources are starting to unload their R glass in fear that the R line will not continue.

I personally find their silence insulting as many people, myself included have been "generational" leica users and for Leica to be bathed in silence is franky bewildering. Would Leica not be trying to hold on to its market share for R users?

I hope Leica is listening and gives us some hope soon or I will go out and buy a full frame canon and at least I can use some of my R glass.

Richard

[guy_mancuso]

So than I guess it's okay if Canon tells everyone in the industry what is next so Nikon and Sony can come out and beat them with something better. It's the same for all thesecompanies. How about this one did you know a year okay of the Nikon d3 and d300?? No you did not and it just was announced and getting released 2 months later. Did you know of the 40d and upcoming not released yet mined you 5 d replacement and when that is coming. get back to reality it just does not happen they way YOU want it to. So if your going to piss on Leica for not telling you what's coming you better have a huge bladder and share it with Nikon, Canon, Sony and others as well. learn something on how the industry actually works.

[stnami]

THere is a difference as we all know that canon and co will eventually upgrade their line, what the poser wnats to know is will a Leica DSLR be a reality..........most would be happy with an official yes and then wait

[guy_mancuso]

But Imants how do you say yes and not say what you have coming, you know the questions will be asked repeatedly. I realize folks want to know and so do i but than the questions come and folks don't get the answers than leica is the bad guy even more, you know how this works. There really is no way of saying yes there is one coming and everyone says nothing for a year. It's really a tough spot for company planning ahead ,what happens you say something and than realize you can't make it for a techincal reason or a money reason, than you have mud on your face. For Richard he has to make a decision and guess what to do , we all have done this and there is no right or wrong answer, it is just the way it is.

[mgcd]

What baffles me is that the chairman of the company himself and Steven Lee have both said that work is being done on the next digital R as we speak. What more do you need?

Cheers,

[guy_mancuso]

And really that is what is going on is comments like that slip out from under the desk and that is about all they can do to keep the interest going. Now from my prespective and my view than no question about it, simply as that but am I 100 percent sure than i have to say no I am not.

[Angora]

Interviews in LFI said it all. Now we'll see at the next 'Kina if Leica gave us true hopes or not.

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

... learn something on how the industry actually works.

I don't think there is consistency here but there is often some logic by the manufacturers decision to pre-release or to keep silent. A number of other camera manufacturers announced future products and even showed prototypes way before they released anything as long as they felt that it wouldn't negatively affect sales of current products. (Mamiya, Pentax, DMR, Hy6)

[rgfenn]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

So than I guess it's okay if Canon tells everyone in the industry what is next so Nikon and Sony can come out and beat them with something better. It's the same for all thesecompanies. How about this one did you know a year okay of the Nikon d3 and d300?? No you did not and it just was announced and getting released 2 months later. Did you know of the 40d and upcoming not released yet mined you 5 d replacement and when that is coming. get back to reality it just does not happen they way YOU want it to. So if your going to piss on Leica for not telling you what's coming you better have a huge bladder and share it with Nikon, Canon, Sony and others as well. learn something on how the industry actually works.

I think you missed the point of my post. I have probably used leica R equipment as long as you, although I do not earn my income from photography. To my best recollection, I can not remember a R camera whereby Nikon, Canon etc where threatened by the technology introduced in any R camera. So I do not think Leica has to worrry about "tipping their hand" prematurely. Frankly, I do not think these days they have the necessary R& D dollars available to re-invent the digital SLR.

The only question my post asked is why Leica has not made an offical announcement that they of developing a new digital R and the expected date to market. They do not have to reveal the camera specifications: just that it is coming, in plain lanuage, not PR phrasiology. Also, just because leica says they are working on a digital R does not mean they will bring it to market, only they are working on it: at the early stages of development this is referred to "creating your business case" for the camera.

Now I appologize if there has been announcement and I have missed it, and would appreciate if you can direct me to this announcement.

cheers Richard

[ho_co]

Originally Posted by rgfenn

Leica fans, retailers and other sources are starting to unload their R glass in fear that the R line will not continue.

That may be happening. That would make this a good time to buy, wouldn't it, since both Lee and Kaufmann have said that a new R is coming? And don't forget the web interview with the Leica engineer who was introduced as designer of the next digital R.

But Richard, your post says in fact, "Gollywumpus, Leica! I demand to know what's coming, because I'm a-gonna buy me a camera soon."

Buy when you feel like it. Leica is hiding at the moment and ready to pounce. And 'pounce' is spelled "photokina 2008."

Nikon may be the strongest full-frame contender at the moment, but Nikon won't take R lenses. So get yourself a 5D and use your R lenses till you get tired of mucking with them on an AF camera and start trading them for Canon lenses. (Oh, wait--that's what you said is already happening, right? Well, the more, the merrier! )

Seriously, if you want a camera, get one. If you want to dump your present lenses, do so. Guy Mancuso dumped his and is now rumbling, 'gee, how could I have done that?'

Just my opinion, of course--gleaned from reading the web and the magazines. Who was it on the forum who recently asked a Leica employee when the R10 was coming and was told 'photokina 2008'?

Originally Posted by rgfenn

Now I appologize if there has been announcement and I have missed it, and would appreciate if you can direct me to this announcement.

Check the Kaufmann interview listed on the forum a month or so ago. Check the various interviews with Lee in business publications and in LFI. No, Leica wants to keep interest growing and isn't going to say officially when and where the camera will arrive, but when the two top guys say to expect further development of the R line, we can pretty well figure that it's going to be digital-only. Use the forum search function to find references to the links.

--HC

[johnjs]

There's no question Leica is commited to further development of the R system with an integrated DSLR body, probably next year. Putting together the various interviews, snippets from press releases, and the rumors from individuals close to people in the company, it's pretty clear that they intend on building a 24x36 frame digital SLR, if not even a slightly different or somewhat larger sensor format. We will probably start to hear some things officially about the progress of the camera after the start of the new year. Leica is a smallish company and they just wrapped a very difficult M8 production and rangefinder lens cycle, with some thorny technical issues, if they're even out of the woods yet. Designing and executing their first integrated DSLR has got to be challenging, and I'm sure they want this camera to have very few problems following it's introduction. A Canon 40D would be a good (and relatively inexpensive) way to utilize your R glass in the interim. best-John

[rgfenn]

Originally Posted by ho_co

That may be happening. That would make this a good time to buy, wouldn't it, since both Lee and Kaufmann have said that a new R is coming? And don't forget the web interview with the Leica engineer who was introduced as designer of the next digital R.

But Richard, your post says in fact, "Gollywumpus, Leica! I demand to know what's coming, because I'm a-gonna buy me a camera soon."

Buy when you feel like it. Leica is hiding at the moment and ready to pounce. And 'pounce' is spelled "photokina 2008."

Nikon may be the strongest full-frame contender at the moment, but Nikon won't take R lenses. So get yourself a 5D and use your R lenses till you get tired of mucking with them on an AF camera and start trading them for Canon lenses. (Oh, wait--that's what you said is already happening, right? Well, the more, the merrier! )

Seriously, if you want a camera, get one. If you want to dump your present lenses, do so. Guy Mancuso dumped his and is now rumbling, 'gee, how could I have done that?'

Just my opinion, of course--gleaned from reading the web and the magazines. Who was it on the forum who recently asked a Leica employee when the R10 was coming and was told 'photokina 2008'?

--HC

Thanks for your thoughts. I too have heard photokina 2008 as well from several sources, but none of them offical: that is my point.

I will admit that upon reflection, that maybe my initial post sounded like a little kid screaming for answers or I will take my candy and go home. What you sensed was my frustration to have dealt with leica for all these years and having to make sense of their leica speak.

I waited my my first R4, them my R5 then my R7 and lastly my R8: I will also wait from the R10. I just would like to know that Leica AG will bring to market a digital R10 and when. I do not need to know the specifications, as I probably will buy it anyway. I have always loved the way a leica feels in my hands and the R glass is beautiful.

Lastly, I have been buying up some Leica glass when the price is right and have no intention of selling my other lens at this time, regardless of what is happening in the market place.

Cheers Richard

[guy_mancuso]

Richard that is what it sounded like is you wanted a answer right now and it was a little demanding , so my response followed. Believe me I want to know as much as you and yes i sold my DMR and there are days i regret it but i am a fast moving ship too and i really don't count in the market because i switch around a lot but still stay in the Leica family , my decision to sell was backup for the M8 which i don't regret that. What i am bummed about is 2 lenses i sold that should have went to my grave actually 3 but the 2 that counted because there hard to get is the 280 F4 Apo and my baby the 180 f2 which i will buy back in a heart beat when the time comes. The third one for a Pro was just to expensive to shoot with the 35-70 2.8 in my mind i was afraid to damage it because of it's worth. Now i can't say if there is one or not coming because of certain issues but the answer is out there and there own top level management is out doing interviews with magazines . i would read between the lines

I just think nothing is official until it is and coming from the horses mouth.

[guy_mancuso]

Oh and i been very grumpy with this heat here. 30 plus days of temps over 110 is not my idea of living in bliss. We are setting records here and i am starting to dream of glaciers and women in fur coats. ROTFLMAO

[telyt]

Even after the DMR announcements, previews and hands-on demonstations there were those who doubted that it would ever come to market. Richard we've been told that Leica is working on the successor to the DMR with something to show at photokina 2008. I realize this isn't a "new, now" product but I'm not looking for a Leica that would be as new as Canon or Nikon's cameras. If I had to replace my DMR with another brand of camera I'd be looking for a camera that would measure up to the DMR's imaging performance and finding very little that meets that standard.

[ho_co]

Originally Posted by rgfenn

Thanks for your thoughts. I too have heard photokina 2008 as well from several sources, but none of them offical: that is my point.

Richard, thanks for the courtesy and openness of your response.

You're right, no source is official. It's more a reading between the lines of one interview after another. Nikon doesn't introduce their cameras before they appear, though leaks sneak through. Canon, according to some sources (this is hearsay; I can't cite a source) actually starts some of its own rumors before a new launch to build the interest; but there's no official release date until shortly before the release.

To me, as my answer implied, there's no reason to doubt the coming R10. No one asked Nikon if there would be a replacement for the D100 or for the D200; that's just the way business is, and everyone knew it would happen.

There's no need to ask if there will be a replacement for the R9 because if Leica is to survive, there must be. To me it's that simple. And Leica is letting the interest build by dropping occasional hints.

Kaufmann: Die R9 ist eigentlich zur Zeit eingestellt. Aus folgendem Grund: der Elektronikboard war nicht mehr EU-kompatibel. Wir hätten das gesamte Board der R9 umkonstruieren müssen und das bei einer analogen Kamera, die hybrid-digital arbeitet.

ECHO: Also wird da vielleicht auch bald etwas Neues kommen?

Kaufmann: Die logische Folge nach der R9 wäre eine R10. Natürlich haben wir ein klares Bekenntnis auch zu Spiegelre-flex-Kameras [sic]. Ich persönlich bin zwar der Meinung, dass man mit der M besser fotografiert, aber der Markt hat anders entschieden. Außerdem gehören die R-Objektive de facto zu den Besten der Welt.

Full interview at Quo vadis, Leica?.

Note, Kaufmann uses the subjunctive when he says, "The logical successor to the R9 would be an R10." But he goes on in the indicative: "Naturally we have a clear commitment to SLR's as well."

And then he does something I find endearing. He must have smiled before continuing, "Personally, I think one photographs better with the M, but the market has come to a different conclusion."

No secrets released. Topic brought back to the M8. But the paragraph started by saying that it's reasonable to expect an R10, because Leica isn't committed just to the M.

I don't need any stronger statement than that. Of course, reading between the lines can be dangerous. I can't guarantee that I'm right, but I don't doubt that the thing is in the works. (At one point I even expressed on the forum my belief that it would appear Sept 2007, but I'm hearing too many rumors that it'll be photokina.)

By the way--thanks for not capitalizing 'photokina' above. You not only walk the walk, but you talk the talk!

--HC

PS & OT--In another thread, someone asked how we're supposed to know that the R9 is actually out of production. The answer to that is in the first paragraph of the Kaufmann interview quote above.

[hamey]

Dear oh Dear,

I have been a R man for over 30 years now, and would not change my Leica film cameras
For anything else.
But I am afriad that Digital imaging is another story.
There is no doubt in my mind that Leica will release the R10.
But I don't think I will be able to afford it, like the DMR.
As the story I have been hearing, it's going to be VERY VERY $$$ EXPENSIVE $$$$$.
The price of the R10 will certainly will be out of my league.

So far PanaLeica has given us that monstrosity called D3 that we can use with an R adapter, some choice.
Today I played with the Canon 40D at the Camera Exchange here in Melbourne.
I can simply say it was gorgeous, beautifully made, Congratulations Canon.
If you have several Leica R lenses, do try this combo as I will certainly do next time.

So the cause is not lost by us Devoted R users, thanks to Canon.

Cheers.

Ps .....If Leica ever considers the DMR-mk2 to which I prefer to the R10 and sells it
at a competitive price I will seriously consider it.

[Iron Flatline]

You're INSULTED?!?! Look, you're a loyal customer, but there are other things to consider - such as the health of the company and the subsequent security of the jobs there.

You never NEVER EVER announce a product before you're actually ready to ship. It's corporate death. The specialty media has a limited attention span, and you want to maximize your product announcement with a subsequent launch.

I'm sorry you're mad that you don't get to know what your favorite company is planning next. Get over it. Move on, the product will get here no sooner, or be no better, if you know about it ahead of time. All that would happen is you would feel "entitled" to a detailed product description next, which you would then proceed to criticize or demand change from.

Telling people about the new product early, ESPECIALLY loyal users who will buy one ANYWAY, is a REALLY bad idea.

Several interviews have been given, in which it has been made AS CLEAR AS APPROPRIATE what Leica's digital strategy is. If you lack the subtlety to read between the lines, you should probably wait till the next press release.

Sorry, lacking sleep. I'll insert smilies later. Off to the airport.

[Irek]

Originally Posted by hamey

Dear oh Dear,

I have been a R man for over 30 years now, and would not change my Leica film cameras
For anything else.
But I am afriad that Digital imaging is another story.
There is no doubt in my mind that Leica will release the R10.
But I don't think I will be able to afford it, like the DMR.
As the story I have been hearing, it's going to be VERY VERY $$$ EXPENSIVE $$$$$.
The price of the R10 will certainly will be out of my league.

So far PanaLeica has given us that monstrosity called D3 that we can use with an R adapter, some choice.
Today I played with the Canon 40D at the Camera Exchange here in Melbourne.
I can simply say it was gorgeous, beautifully made, Congratulations Canon.
If you have several Leica R lenses, do try this combo as I will certainly do next time.

So the cause is not lost by us Devoted R users, thanks to Canon.

Cheers.

Ps .....If Leica ever considers the DMR-mk2 to which I prefer to the R10 and sells it
at a competitive price I will seriously consider it.

Leica lost partnership with manufacturer of DMR. But I think DMR was a good move to secure R lens market. The Holy Grail is to have FF camera. Maybe Leica can do it with R10 for Photokina 2008. But there is a lot time to this event. More, there is a lot of development works and software tweaking.
So DMR-mk2 is the logical solution at that moment, for instance by using sensor from M8 and all sofware achievements.
Production of R9 can be not profitable at that moment, when you are reading new R10 body and when you have not any new DMR. But there is still a some base of R8 and R9 bodies to fullfill gap. DMR-mk2 with M8 sensor can be cheaper than original DMR (rather small development costs in comparison with starting from scratch) and by this can sustain R lens base.
I think Leica can speed up R system market by introducing DMR-mk2 with reasonable price, 1/2 to 2/3 price of original DMR.

Regards
Irek

[earleygallery]

As has been said Leica have hinted at development of the R line. Its just not their way to release info too far in advance. Look at the M8 - they only officially announced its details about a month before it was released. Everything up til then was speculation and leaks.

Its interesting that so many dealers seem to be offering 'ex demo' R stock and special offers. I would suggest that would indicate that the R lenses will also be updated in some way with the new R10 or whatever it will be called. Exisiting lenses may well be mountable on the new camera but I'm wondering if they are looking at AF or some other electronic connections not possible with current ROM lenses.

Anyway, time will tell.