OK Leica- R10 digital fact or fiction Tell US!

[wattsy]

Leica is in a pretty unique position in having a line of lenses (supposedly still in production) but no current digital body as part of that system. It is hardly unreasonable for an existing or potential customer to expect Leica to have an official position on the digital future of that system.

It's not as if Leica don't have form in this regard. The development of the digital M had an official announcement (without any meaningful technical details) a long time before the proposed launch date of Photokina 2006. Is there an expectation now that interested parties need to be reading 'coded' interviews in LFI or internet gossip to be able to make an informed buying decision?

(Just out of interest, has anyone in this forum bought a new R lens recently? At full RRP, not one of the half-price 'ex-demo' lenses made available earlier in the Summer.)

[wattsy]

Originally Posted by earleygallery

Look at the M8 - they only officially announced its details about a month before it was released. Everything up til then was speculation and leaks.

That's not true. Leica made at least one official announcement about 18 months in advance of the launch at Photokina 2006.

[hamey]

Originally Posted by Irek

Leica lost partnership with manufacturer of DMR. But I think DMR was a good move to secure R lens market. The Holy Grail is to have FF camera. Maybe Leica can do it with R10 for Photokina 2008. But there is a lot time to this event. More, there is a lot of development works and software tweaking.
So DMR-mk2 is the logical solution at that moment, for instance by using sensor from M8 and all sofware achievements.
Production of R9 can be not profitable at that moment, when you are reading new R10 body and when you have not any new DMR. But there is still a some base of R8 and R9 bodies to fullfill gap. DMR-mk2 with M8 sensor can be cheaper than original DMR (rather small development costs in comparison with starting from scratch) and by this can sustain R lens base.
I think Leica can speed up R system market by introducing DMR-mk2 with reasonable price, 1/2 to 2/3 price of original DMR.

Regards
Irek

Irek, It would be lovely if Leica took this on board.

I know my jaw, just about dropped when the possible price of the R10 was quoted to me.
It might only be BS and I hope it is.
But if it's true, what market are Leica after....MEDIUM FORMAT....????????????

It's a good thing I love shooting Slide Film.


Ken.

[rgfenn]

Originally Posted by telyt

Even after the DMR announcements, previews and hands-on demonstations there were those who doubted that it would ever come to market. Richard we've been told that Leica is working on the successor to the DMR with something to show at photokina 2008. I realize this isn't a "new, now" product but I'm not looking for a Leica that would be as new as Canon or Nikon's cameras. If I had to replace my DMR with another brand of camera I'd be looking for a camera that would measure up to the DMR's imaging performance and finding very little that meets that standard.

I never really considered the R9/DMR combo as I thought it was large and heavy. However, image performance is another issue and in this regard the DMR produces. Perhaps I will reconsider my initial positon and look for a used R9/DMR combo for now.

Cheers Richard

[rgfenn]

Originally Posted by hamey

Irek, It would be lovely if Leica took this on board.

I know my jaw, just about dropped when the possible price of the R10 was quoted to me.
It might only be BS and I hope it is.
But if it's true, what market are Leica after....MEDIUM FORMAT....????????????

It's a good thing I love shooting Slide Film.


Ken.

Hello,

I am curious what is the possible price floating around: I am sure it starts at the moon and heads out to the stars?

Cheers Richard

[rgfenn]

Originally Posted by wattsy

Leica is in a pretty unique position in having a line of lenses (supposedly still in production) but no current digital body as part of that system. It is hardly unreasonable for an existing or potential customer to expect Leica to have an official position on the digital future of that system.

It's not as if Leica don't have form in this regard. The development of the digital M had an official announcement (without any meaningful technical details) a long time before the proposed launch date of Photokina 2006. Is there an expectation now that interested parties need to be reading 'coded' interviews in LFI or internet gossip to be able to make an informed buying decision?

(Just out of interest, has anyone in this forum bought a new R lens recently? At full RRP, not one of the half-price 'ex-demo' lenses made available earlier in the Summer.)

Very good point about Leica R lens still in production.

cheers Richard

[hamey]

Richard.

You are not to far of it.

The R10 will be a wonderful product.
But there will be a lot of Disappointed people out there when the price is announced.
And the Leica R10, well I will give you a clue on what price
I was Quoted.
You can buy 3 Nikon D3's in US dollars for the same price of an R10.
I hope its all BS, but my mate doesn.t BS to me, as he was shocked as well.
And I saw it on his face.

I am sure someone can elaborate the possible price of the R10 on this forum.

It's nice to dream.

Cheers.

[telyt]

Originally Posted by hamey

But there will be a lot of Disappointed people out there when the price is announced.

If the R10's image quality is equal to or better than the DMR's and the R10's viewfinder is anything like the SL's I'll do whatever I must to buy one.

I'll eat nothing but peanut butter sandwiches

I'll skip haircuts

I'll sell my truck and ride a bicycle everywhere

I'll sell the house and live in a tent

A camera with an SL viewfinder combined with DMR image quality is the most productive tool I can imagine and it will pay for itself in no time regardless of the initial cost... then I'll buy a new truck and a better house and maybe get a haircut.

[leicar7]

The only announcement of note would be a negative one: that there won't be a DSLR from Leica. It would be difficult for anyone who attended Fotokina 2006 and has paid attention to the various interviews and announcements to doubt that Leica is working on what we are referring to as an "R10." They have spent considerable effort to solicit inputs from the inveterate R community on what we want in an R10. All we can hope is that we get most of what we want.

One point of economics regarding lenses.... Leica used to have to sell on the order of 6,000 units of an R lens to break even. Hopefully they have found ways to reduce that number in the last few years, but R users need to start now saving their pennies and pfennigs to support whatever is announced next year. I doubt Kaufmann and Lee can support a money losing R line indefinitely.

[jrc]

I'm like the OP, I'd like to see an official announcement. This isn't just silly over-eagerness -- I need a new or upgraded DSLR system, and the M8 has impressed me enough that I'd consider the R10. But if the R10 is three or four years away, then I'm going with the Nikon. If the R10 is more-or-less a year away (Photokina fall 2008) then I'll wait. I know there are business reasons for picking a certain time to make an announcement, but there are also business and personal reasons for moving to a new system -- Leica has their business, and we have ours. If I decide that I have to go with a Nikon because my current (aging) system is a problem, then Leica takes a dead loss: that's one guy who won't be buying $30,000 worth of new Leica gear.

What will Leica give up by assuring us that a new system is on the way? Surprise? Most people here already wouldn't be surprised. Strategic advantage? Do you really think Canon, Nikon and Sony care that much? An announcement would simply say, "Yes, we're planning an R10 and we expect to release it next year. We have no definate time-table, we have no specs, but that's what we plan to do. We'll make another annoucment on our progress on June 1."

A regular pre-scheduled series of progress announcements would actually build interest, if done cleverly.

I think such an announcment would only help.

JC

[ho_co]

Originally Posted by Irek

...So DMR-mk2 is the logical solution at that moment, for instance by using sensor from M8 and all sofware achievements. ...

Irek, you've done some thinking about this, but I'm not sure.

Using the M8 sensor isn't possible because it was specifically designed for the M8--thin cover glass, radially displaced sensor lenses, etc.

Building a product specifically for an expressly discontinued line (R8/R9) is questionable, regardless of the price.

Apparently, a big reason for the cost of the DMR was making it interchangeable; so that cost would still obtain.

From announcement to shipment of the DMR was close to two years. Even if a DMR2 were feasible, wouldn't it still take half as long? And by that time the R10 is ready for announcement.

Just my thinking on the matter.

--HC

[4season]

Leica shouldn't make any announcements regarding future products until they're ready to ship, or very close to it. Otherwise they will be endlessly criticized, flooded with feature requests, and in general, micro-managed to death. Look at Apple: Here we are just days away from a new product announcement, and all we know so far is that it probably involves iPods.

15K USD for an R10 body sounds improbable to me unless they're expecting the US Dollar to be worth just 30% as much by late 2008 or simply don't want to sell too many of the things. Even now, it's like the old joke: $5K for an M8, $5K for a Noctilux and $5K for a WATE; pretty soon it adds up to real money.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by hamey

You can buy 3 Nikon D3's in US dollars for the same price of an R10.
I hope its all BS, but my mate doesn.t BS to me, as he was shocked as well.
And I saw it on his face.
.

Well ... Ken. Let's hope the price of a D3 will drop to $2500 by the time a R10 is introduced. LOL

[dfarkas]

I tend to doubt a price tag that high for the R10. The M8 was introduced at a great price relative to the DMR. I'd like to believe that the R10 will cost less than the 1DsMk3. This would be a major coup for them, and maybe lead to some market share shifting in the high end segment.

Leica ultimately wants to sell lenses. They were/are overun with demand for new M lenses due to the widespread adoption of the M8. If management learns from this example, they will price the R10 low enough to get sufficient numbers into the marketplace, then sell a lot of R lenses.

The reason Leica isn't being too forthcoming with R10 details... They got badly burned with the introduction of the DMR. There was news, previews, etc. over a year in advance. The camera was slated to be released, then delayed, then rescheduled, then delayed again, then finally delivered in very small quantities. A lot of peoeple were less than pleased with all the delays. Behind the scenes, Leica wasn't happy with the initial firmware, and wanted partner Imacon to make changes. They had little control over the timeframe (we saw this with v1.3) in which Imacon delivered. Later, many of the same people complaining were applauding Leica for sticking to their guns and making the product truly market ready.

I know the R10 will be great and I know Leica listens to their customers. Let's all just have faith for now.

David

[kidigital]

I, like a few other ex-DMR users, are watching closely. I sold all of my R lenses to get fully stocked on M lenses. I'm thinking that if Leica doesn't announce anything for another few months, used R prices will drop even further. This might be fortuitous for those of us willing to gamble that there will be an R10 as it might be a good re-entry point to pick up a few favorite R lenses at depressed prices.

Kurt

[R10dreamer]

Price estimates without specs is a pretty useless venture. Would I pay $7,500 for a FF, 18 meg, dual card, 5fps, focus confirmation and better image quality than the DMR? Sure. For sure.

Would I pay the same for a 14 meg, lens factor, single card, focus confirm but same image quality as the DMR? Heck no.

The price is irrelevant without the specs. Show me the specs and then lets talk price.

[mgcd]

Originally Posted by hamey

Richard.

But there will be a lot of Disappointed people out there when the price is announced.
And the Leica R10, well I will give you a clue on what price
I was Quoted.
You can buy 3 Nikon D3's in US dollars for the same price of an R10.

Ken - THIS is the fiction part of this thread... There is no way.

Cheers,

[rsolomon]

Certainly there will be an R10..... and also an R11 one day.

Digital camera =short market life, leica's business is lenses NOT cameras


..and i don't automatcially assume that the R10 will offer more then the current R9/DMR combo..... it might be a lower cost alternitive body that supports R lenses, support the business.

Look at the digitial camera industry, an all Digital R10 will have the marketability of a few years at most - just like computers and various other electronics.

I would expect when leica goes fully digital with the R series we will see that leica will to have new camera body offerings every few years to keep current.

The mechanical film based leica is a completely different product.... and has a completely different market.

IMHO: those who want a long term digital solution will not get it

[hamey]

Conrad.

I sincerly hope I am talking BS on the price of the Leica R10, because like most of you I
Was also looking forward to getting the R10.
I have 8 R lenses and 5 R bodies in my inventry, so as you can see I also have a considerable investment in Leica R. but putting it simply, I cannot justify that cost I was quoted.

I realise it's premature to talk about the price of the Leica R10, but I was only quoting the price I was given.

Ok, I made a statement on this forum that I couldn't see the M8 selling cheaper then the DMR.
......................................I was proved wrong, it does......................................


Cheers.

[guy_mancuso]

Most likely will be around the same price as a 1dsMKIII ,my guess 7600.00