HE-llo! Whole new ballgame!

[sdai]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

Honestly though the D300 and 40 d do sound like a good place for macro and tele to compliment the M8's and i have been thnking about that a little until the R10 comes. Than i am going for a r10 and m8 or 9 and just have both and be a pig about it

Exactly, if I were to buy a Canon or Nikon now, I have no doubt that the 40D or D300 will be my top choices, the 40D at 1299US is a steal especially ... given the fact that you can also adapt a R lens to it.

The round trip tickets to Germany are cheap ... count me in for the Kina 08 tour and then we head to the Oktoberfest.

[guy_mancuso]

I'm game

[rsh]

Guy:

Did yopu keep any of R lenses? My gut is that from this point forward, Leica will be developing Autofocus R lenses with backward compatibility to the Manuel focus Lenses.

[guy_mancuso]

No and i could kick my self sometimes for selling the DMR but i do have the Olympus 24mm shift lens for R and that i am keeping . i will have to get some R glass again but I have a gut feeling the M9 will come with the same sensor and the same time as the R10, just a feeling folks . Nothing confirmed but I am a betting man on this one.

[rsh]

I hope you are right on the M9.

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by hankg

I think that's absolutely correct. The 1D is the pro workhorse. The 1Ds is more of a studio photographers camera. Many of the medium format shooters who had adopted the original 1Ds have now moved to medium format digital. Many of the 35mm shooters who want hi-res full frame have opted for the 5D. I think the 1Ds market as a result is much reduced.

Also, I don't think that many projects really require more than 12 megapixels or so. And Nikon probably is aware of that. I have a 1Ds and a 1DmkII but opted for a 5D over the 1DsII because I prefer its size and weight. (The batteries and chargers are much smaller and lighter too.) The 1DsIII is very apealing but I may pass on it hoping for a replacement for the 5D within a year. (I'm not in a hurry.) Pro body or not the 5D has held up very well for me.

I wonder if the release of the D3 will lead Nikon into making some new wide angle PC lenses.

If Leica has the resources to make a full featured R10 (AF lens system), I think they should be looking at a form factor closer to the 5D or D300.

[guy_mancuso]

I agree Alan there is no need for Leica to try and keep up speed wise and the bulk that comes with that is really not needed . Let's face it were not looking for a sports camera per say. Everyone that wants a Leica R10 is pretty much after a form factor of a 5d or slightly larger but the key elements are 18 mpx minimum, CCD, No AA, Some type of focus confirmation at the minimum or some AF lenses , backwards compatable to existing glass, 16 bits for sure and faster buffer than the DMR which let's face it , it was slow and i would like to see at least 3fps on continous. Oh the biggy FF or better and come in at 6200 US or lower. Let's face facts we will never see this from Leica at 5k. We really want here is a butt wiping or equal to the new 1dsMKIII and not a D3 that Nikon just introduced which looks like a great camera but falls short on the MPX at this level of camera were asking for. Bottom line really is MF in a small form factor. At least that is what I want

[marknorton]

Makes you think though, doesn't it? Just $50 more than an M8...

I'm disappointed by the lower resolution than I expected. I don't need 9fps, I'd like more than 12MP with FF.

I think Guy's comment about the glass is interesting. All Nikon digital imaging so far has either used the sweet spot of FF lenses or new DX lenses like the 12-24 and 17-55. With the D3, DX glass turns it into a 5MP camera, and there have been very few recent Nikon FF lenses, now they're playing catch up but not with fast primes.

[guy_mancuso]

Mark what is going to happen right now with Nikon users is sort of what we all went through is a scramble for glass but this time Nikon users won't be looking at the new stuff except for what they just announced but OLD manual focus lenses that go back to the F3 days, because those lenses were designed for FF. So all those manual focus lenses sitting in the dark closet will be a hot item again for Nikon shooters( time to make a few dollars folks). This is one area Nikon was really smart though and was the use of the Old glass in there new digital wonders and they have that edge over the Canon users. But Canon users do have a option although not there own glass but the Lucky Leica r glass which really is killer stuff. Lot of checks and balances for a guy deciding Nikon Vs Canon right now. The new camera's do serve a good market for Nikon they just need to get another body out there that will compete at the higer level wit MPX and we may see that. Nikon and Canon have had many wars over the years this is just a blast to watch from the bleachers. LOL

[marknorton]

Guy, I wonder how those FF lenses will stack up? All Nikon digital imaging up to now has been either on the centre sweet spot or else with newly designed DX lenses. I wonder how well my 28/1.4 and 85/1.4 will work, full frame. I can be quite certain the 14/2.8 is going to be a challenge and I expect the new 14-24 will blow it away, in the same way the 17-35/2.8 does the 20/2.8 now.

I'm disappointed at the low resolution, makes DX lenses redundant if you think the FX sensor will eventually find its way down - like the 5D - into lower cost bodies.

I'm hoping there will be a higher resolution version of the D3 at some point. Right now, it's not enough for me to dump my D2x.

[carstenw]

I don't think that Nikon is done yet. The D3 is conspicuously missing an 'h' on it, but that is what it is: a pro sports/wildlife camera. High framerates and super-fast and accurate focusing. The door is wide open for a D3x, but they clearly don't have it yet. I presume that this is a tactic to get most of the market happy, and then debug the new sensor, at which point they can roll out a larger version in the D3x. Let's hope they make it. Let's hope that Kodak can deliver the goods to Leica too, so that the R10 will be as impressive, although in different ways: quality of lenses as always, IQ above all, and a traditional kind of robustness in a compact package, without all the overboard stuff.

[guy_mancuso]

You know there maybe something we are overlooking also. Nikon may have kept the MPX down for a reason besides a speed camera and that is the lack of FF lenses. Imagine they roll out a 22mpx power house and only 3 lenses would work with it. Of course Canon being dummies here is doing it now with no real glass support

Now i was in the day when the 1ds and 1dsMKII rolled out and let me say there were not very friendly happy campers with soft corners. I may have been the biggest bitch of all about it but it was not fun and lead to buying Zeiss and Leica glass to make it work. Nikon can't look to Leica to save them but they do have Zeiss making glass now but this could overall have been a smart business decision for now until they can get some real glass out there for a 22mpx. I agree Carsten there not done yet but they may have to look elsewhere for that powerhouse sensor and it may come from Fuji or Kodak

[sdai]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

I agree Carsten there not done yet but they may have to look elsewhere for that powerhouse sensor and it may come from Fuji or Kodak

Guy ... trust me you'll never see a non-Japanese sensor in either Canons or Nikons again.

One of my friends had the chance to talk to Sony's Senior Product Manager of AMC Division Toru Katsumoto directly, a major reason why Nikon can get the exclusive rights to try these sensors first in their own models (even before the Sony models) is because they share a larger portion of the R&D costs.

Nikon was, is and will continue to be the driving force behind Sony's large format sensor development.

Can you imagine that they'll pull the plug and turn to Kodak or Fuji now? ... not even in the next 100 years.

[guy_mancuso]

Good to know that . Sony is pretty good , they maybe able to just pull it off here pretty soon.

[rpierce]

Perhaps Nikon's full color sensor may be used:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07...magesensor.asp

All this news about D3 sounds great, but I'll hang onto my D2x and M8 for the time being.

Bob Pierce

[rosuna]

Originally Posted by adan

Let me expand a bit...When it comes time for Leica to build a "full-frame" (24x36mm) sensor, they can, of course, simply keep Kodak's CCD architecture as used in the M8 and DMR, and just put more of the same pixels on a bigger sensor.

The real problem with big CCDs is power consumption and heat dissipation. Take a look at battery capacity (in terms of number of pictures) of CMOS and CCD based cameras (with sensors of the same size). The bigger the CCD, the worse the problem is. This affects noise at long exposure times as well.

The development of a FF camera is not an easy task for Leica. They will need a CMOS sensor (provided by Kodak or an alternative manufacturer) or a very, very efficient power saving system. The total number of pixels is not the main problem here.

On the other hand, Leica needs a clear improvement in noise handling. In theory, FFT CCD sensors have much bigger photosites than equivalent CMOS sensors, but "in-pixel" treatment of several noise sources and lower power consumption explain the better performance of CMOS at high ISOs. Leica cameras (DMR, M8) don't perform very well here, in my opinion. I don't agree with Phil Askey's comparative analysis of the noise performance of the M8. The Canon 5D is miles ahead in this field.

I think the trend is towards CMOS technology for big sensors. But the relative performance of CMOS vs CCDs is quickly improving. Ultraportable cameras like the M8 can benefit a lot from CMOS advantages. The technology is ready and in the market (Sony, Nikon, Canon), but I don't know if Leica has access to it (they depend on Kodak, and the same goes for medium format manufacturers).

[sdai]

One major contributing factor to the improved noise performace from CMOS sensors are their relatively simplified structure so manufacturers can integrate peripheral electronics on board more easily to address the noise issue at the per pixel level.

Another reason why Sony and Canon all went down the CMOS path is because its relative ease of parallel output structures to gain speed.

But CCD always archive superior performance benchmarks vs. CMOS to date ... especially in the dynamic range department. This is why all high end applications stick to CCD ... when cost is not an issue.

[jgmb]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

Completely agree as a industry they have turned a corner , now it it is up to leica to come out with a R10 at 18mpx , 16 bit, FF, CCD, No AA, Faster processor, Smaller camera like a 5D , Focus confirmation, maybe 3 AF zoom lenses and actually go out and kick some royal ass against the bigger companies. i am standing in line waiting

Exactly! Guy, I fully agree with everything on your feature list for the R10! Except I would add the following to MY dream R10 wish list: minimum 3" 920,000 pixel LCD resolution (no more crappy 230k!), 100% viewfinder coverage, and dual-mode Live View with mirror lockup (a la the new Nikons) and find a way fit it all into a light compact body the size of the Leica R7.

[guy_mancuso]

I did forget the LCD part. Depending on size of it i quess , of course we are looking at a 300d size camera and that does have 3inch.

Frankly i may need something to hold me off until the R10 and that damn 300d looks a lot better than the canon 40d. My issue is my Olympus 24 shift with R mount, I can't fit it on the Nikon but I just want a 60 macro and a 200mm 2.8 and that is it really. maybe i have to go Canon, cheaper anyway. i'll wait until thinks settle down . Honestly it is not were i want to spend my money

[mgcd]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

No and i could kick my self sometimes for selling the DMR but i do have the Olympus 24mm shift lens for R and that i am keeping . i will have to get some R glass again...

I'll do it for free if you'd like... I still cannot believe you sold it (them)!

Cheers,