M8 Viewfinder possibility...

[IcemanYQQ]

There seems to much discussion on how Leica will deal with the various lenses, viewfinders, and the crop factor. This got me to thinking what about the other lenses, the ones that don't generally have guidelines in the finder, are too long, or to wide of an angle.

I wonder if the LCD will have a live preview like normal digital cameras. In rare cases, like when using a Voigtlander 12mm, the new rumoured 16mm, or a 135mm, maybe viewing on the screen is an option.

I use and prefer a viewfinder, almost 100 percent of the time, although there are instances where live preview can be helpful. I was just wondering if this might be one of those areas.

[adan]

The short answer is - No, the M8 will not have live preview. Per company sources.

The long answer:

I'm not sure how you define "normal digital cameras" - but certainly none of the interchangeable lens SLRs have live preview (with 2-4 exceptions). Pros using Canon EOS or Nikon D SLRs (or the Leica DMR) would roll on the floor choking with laughter at the idea that their cameras don't count as 'normal'.

The 2-4 exceptions are: one 4/3rds SLR each from Olympus and Panasonic, (and perhaps Leica) - and a special-order astronomical version of the Canon EOS 20D for use with telescopes.

Generally the live preview on the 4/3rds SLRs has gotten mixed reviews so far - dark, no AF possible in some modes, a LOT of shutter lag (shutter is open for the preview, then has to close and open and close again for the actual exposure), etc. etc.

My own sense is this - using live preview on a Leica M would be fairly slow. One would have to focus using the RF (since manual focus via an LCD screen is marginal) and then shift the camera out to arms length to frame with the LCD.

If you're working in a fast-paced situation, you wouldn't use the live view. And if you're working in a slow-paced situation, you can alway check the composition or focus AFTER the shot on the LCD and then reshoot if needed. Something I did several times with the Epson R-D1 for shots where I could not use the regular viewfinder (or the LCD for that matter) - e.g. placing the camera on a 3" ledge behind icicles so that they would frame a winter landscape.

[earleygallery]

Live preview will indeed be available on the M8.

You just look through the little window.........

[IcemanYQQ]

Originally Posted by adan

I'm not sure how you define "normal digital cameras" - but certainly none of the interchangeable lens SLRs have live preview (with 2-4 exceptions). Pros using Canon EOS or Nikon D SLRs (or the Leica DMR) would roll on the floor choking with laughter at the idea that their cameras don't count as 'normal'.

If you're working in a fast-paced situation, you wouldn't use the live view. And if you're working in a slow-paced situation, you can alway check the composition or focus AFTER the shot on the LCD and then reshoot if needed. Something I did several times with the Epson R-D1 for shots where I could not use the regular viewfinder (or the LCD for that matter) - e.g. placing the camera on a 3" ledge behind icicles so that they would frame a winter landscape.

Wow... you guys are a tough crowd. I never said that DSLR's weren't normal cameras, I was referring to P&S cameras. The reason I asked is becuase the Leica does not have mirror to deal with, and it would not be difficult.

I am NOT advocating the use of live preview, my original question dealt with wheather or not it was a possibility, no more... no less. I did not ask for a lecture on the pros and cons of live preview.

[marknorton]

If, as we believe, the sensor used is a revised version of the Kodak KAF-10010 used in the DMR, this sensor does not support continuous image read-out which is most commonly the domain of the smaller sensors in P&S cameras and a derivative of the sensors used in video cameras.

With a larger sensor like this, you want to keep the light off it and the sensor running on low power to keep it cool when not in use and the shutter if effected by using a mechanical shutter in front of the sensor, not by an electronic "snap-shot" function built into the sensor.

As Andy has mentioned, the Panasonic tries to please everyone by offering both modes and there are compromises. So unless the M8 turns out to be radically different from what we expect, I don't think live preview is likely.

[earleygallery]

Well, anythings possible (almost) but no, the M8 won't feature live preview.

[peterb]

One possible solution to different lenses of the M system on the M8 might be that the camera, now able to read a bar code from the lense, would be able to project a perfectly proportionate frame line that would, indeed, move with the focus to correct for parallax. Since the current M sort of does this already with little reflected diodes for the metering I see no reason why a smallish LCD buried inside the finder that would merely display frame lines (and any other information I suppose) like some HUD (Head Up Display used by fighter pilots) could not be incorporated.

But, as they say, we shall see in September (or whenever).

Peter

[jmr]

Allan,

an interesting question, stimulating interesting answers. We'll all know soon enough.

Nice website, by the way.

[IcemanYQQ]

Thanks everyone, and John, thanks for the comments. I like your Paris images. It's my favorite city in the world.

[geoff]

Originally Posted by adan

If you're working in a fast-paced situation, you wouldn't use the live view.

Actually, a fast-paced situation is exactly where I would most definitely take advantage of true live preview.

The live preview on my Leica Digilux 2 provides the agility I need for framing and capturing fleeting moments.

Working manually, I choose a base aperture and set a hyper-focus range. Usually, ƒ8, when using my handheld panel flash, for inside work, and ƒ5.6 for outdoors. I then alternate the focus distance and aperture in response to quick changes in lighting and, or distance. I think this is pretty familiar for most seasoned M system users.

A strong advantage of most Leica cameras is that aperture, shutter speed and focus range can be quickly checked, confirmed and ergonomically changed when deemed, due to the incorporation of an aperture ring, focus range markings, and top mount shutter speed dial.

The added advantage, with live preview, is that I can pretty much aim the camera, frame the intended subject, and capture the decisive moment more times than not than if I had to constantly raise the camera to my head at eye-level, in addition to manually focusing or waiting for auto-focus to fall in place. Even if the camera is at my waist, over my head, or off to one side or the other, I can still adequately see enough on the LCD display to fame my subject.

Many times the difference is between capturing the subject or not capturing it at all. Other times I am quite surprised at the percentage of images I can now, and do, frame and take which are not at eye-level.

This maybe unorthodox to some, but the what is the point? To me it is matching the right tool for the job at hand. The introduction of live preview coupled with traditional analog aperture and shutter speed controls opens up new photographic possibilities, especially as applied to reportage type photography where camera design and technology are paramount in enabling tight integration with the photographer and facilitating rapid human response.

Unfortunately, I do not consider the live preview option on the forthcoming Panasonic Lumix DMC-L1 as being useful at all for live subject framing given the approximate one second shutter delay as reported in the operation manual.

One of the hallmarks of the Leica brand, at least with the M series, has been a relatively quiet shutter. However, due technical requirements of the sensor, the Leica M8 will use a metal rather than cloth shutter. Perhaps one of the logical technical advancements, built on traditional Leica hallmarks, for a Leica M9, would be to explore the possibilities of a high quality continuous image read-out sensor/electronic shutter/live LCD preview solution.

[adan]

Iceman: Sorry - didn't mean to be a "tough crowd"! Mark's point re: the sensor is probably more on point anyway. I have a Sony R-1, which has the largest live-preview sensor currently in use in a still camera - and it definitely shows a bit more noise than comparably-sized non-preview SLR sensors (Canon 20/30D) - in part because it must be "on" (and thus warm) all the time.

Geoff: bear in mind that your Digilux 2 is "viewing" at full aperture and then stopping down to shoot. The Leica M lenses don't have auto aperture, so to use them in the way you propose on an M9 would mean viewing at f/8 as well as shooting at f/8 (or more likely f/16, since a 21 on the M will require using a smaller aperture for 'hyperfocal' shooting than the 7mm lens on the D2).

Not a fatal flaw, becasue I guess the image gain could be cranked up for live preview.

[marknorton]

Originally Posted by geoff

Actually, a fast-paced situation is exactly where I would most definitely take advantage of true live preview.

The live preview on my Leica Digilux 2 provides the agility I need for framing and capturing fleeting moments.

I can certainly understand the framing benefits - you used to be able to buy an action finder for Nikon film SLRs which allowed you to frame the shot in a similar way to using a P&S today.

The D2 lets the side down though once you've decided to actually take a picture. It's a sluggish old thing and it's difficult to know exactly when the camera is going to fire, not helped by the audible click from the lens happending AFTER the picture has been taken and the image is being read out. It sounds like the L1 might even be worse, depending on how you use it.

[geoff]

Originally Posted by adan

Geoff: bear in mind that your Digilux 2 is "viewing" at full aperture and then stopping down to shoot. The Leica M lenses don't have auto aperture...

Yes, thank you. Totally skipped my mind. That's the type of technical perspective I'm looking for. This would put more emphasis on the need for a true Digilux 3.