Who owns the 'Leica' name? Customers or Shareholders?

[aXs]

I'm curious how other members of the Leica Forum react to the fact that many "Leica" domain names are registered (.com, .net, .org) and used internationally - I assume without Leica's approval.
I am also puzzled why Leica Camera AG and/or shareholder(s) haven't taken legal action (and pushed the media) for stopping the "diluting" of the Leica brand name.

What do you think? Could any private camera-user/collector, camera re-seller, eBay-reseller - just register "Leica"?

Note, the Leica Forum URL domain name was recently changed to www.l-camera-forum.com (removing "Leica") for legal reasons.

Look at this partial list (.com, .net, .org) and it does not include country specific (.co.uk, .de,. it etc) URL domain names:
LEICA-A-LA-CARTE.COM LEICA-ACADEMY.COM
LEICA-AG.COM LEICA-AKADEMIE.COM LEICA-ALA-CARTE.COM LEICA-ALACARTE.COM
LEICA-ALLIANCE.COM LEICA-AMERA.COM LEICA-AUCTIONEN.COM
LEICA-AUCTIONS.COM LEICA-BASAR.COM LEICA-BINOCULARS.COM
LEICA-BRASIL.COM LEICA-BRASILIEN.COM LEICA-BRAZIL.COM
LEICA-CAEMRA.COM LEICA-CAERA.COM LEICA-CAMEA.COM
LEICA-CAMER.COM LEICA-CAMERA-USA.COM LEICA-CAMERA.COM
LEICA-CAMERA.NET LEICA-CAMERA.ORG LEICA-CAMERAS.COM
LEICA-CAMERAUSA.COM
LEICA-CAMRA.COM LEICA-CAMWRA.COM LEICA-CHILE.COM
LEICA-CLASSICS.COM LEICA-CLUB.COM LEICA-CMAERA.COM LEICA-CMERA.COM
LEICA-COLLECTOR.COM LEICA-CONFOCAL-MICROSCOPY.COM LEICA-CUBA.COM
LEICA-DIGITAL.COM
LEICA-DISCOVERMICROSCOPY.COM LEICA-DISTO.COM LEICA-EAD.COM
LEICA-EM-PREPARATION.COM LEICA-ESHOP.COM
LEICA-EXCHANGE.COM LEICA-FORUM.COM LEICA-FOTO.COM LEICA-FOTOGRAFIE.COM
LEICA-G.COM LEICA-GALLERY.COM LEICA-GALLERY.NET
LEICA-GALLERY.ORG
LEICA-GEOSISTEMS.COM LEICA-GEOSYSTEM.COM
LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.COM LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.NET
LEICA-GEOSYSTEMS.ORG LEICA-GEOSYTEMS.COM
LEICA-GIS.COM LEICA-GLOBAL.COM LEICA-GOESYSTEMS.COM
LEICA-GPS.COM
LEICA-HISTO-SOLUTIONS.COM LEICA-ICROSYSTEMS.COM
LEICA-INFO.COM LEICA-INSTRUMENTS.COM
LEICA-INTERNATIONAL.COM LEICA-ITALY.COM
LEICA-JAPAN.NET
LEICA-KONG.NET LEICA-KOREA.COM
LEICA-LIGHT-MICROSCOPY.COM
LEICA-LIGHTMICROSCOPY.COM
LEICA-LOUPES.COM
LEICA-LSG.COM LEICA-LUPE.COM LEICA-M-ALACARTE.COM
LEICA-M3.COM LEICA-MATERIALS-SECTIONING.COM
LEICA-MICEOSYSTEMS.COM
LEICA-MICOSYSTEMS.COM LEICA-MICROSCOPY-IMAGING.COM LEICA-MICROSISTEMAS.COMLEICA-MICROSYSEMS.COM
LEICA-MICROSYSTEM.COM
LEICA-MICROSYSTEMS.COM LEICA-MICROSYSTEMS.NET
LEICA-MICROSYSTEMS.ORG LEICA-MICROSYSTES.COM
LEICA-MICROSYSTMES.COM
LEICA-MICROSYSTMS.COM LEICA-MICROSYTEMS.COM
LEICA-MICROYSTEMS.COM
LEICA-MICRSOYSTEMS.COM LEICA-MICRSYSTEMS.COM
LEICA-MIKROSYSTEME.COM
LEICA-MIKROSYSTEMS.COM LEICA-MIXROSYSTEMS.COM
LEICA-MOCROSYSTEMS.COM LEICA-MP.COM
LEICA-MS.COM LEICA-NRS.COM
LEICA-OBJEKTIVE.COM LEICA-OEM-OPTICS.COM
LEICA-OID.COM LEICA-PASSION.COM
LEICA-PERU.COM LEICA-PHOTO.COM
LEICA-PROJEKTION.COM LEICA-R.COM LEICA-RUSSLAND.COM LEICA-S.COM
LEICA-SEMICONATION.COM LEICA-SEMICONDUCTOR.COM
LEICA-SEMICONDUCTORS.COM LEICA-SERVICE.COM
LEICA-SHOP.COM
LEICA-SHOP.NET LEICA-SISTEM.COM
LEICA-SOCIETY.COM LEICA-SOCIETY.ORG
LEICA-SPECIAL.COM LEICA-STEREOSTAR.COM LEICA-STEREOZOOM.COM
LEICA-SURGICALSCOPES.COM
LEICA-SURVCE.COM LEICA-USA.COM
LEICA-USERS.COM LEICA-USERS.NET
LEICA-USERS.ORG LEICA-VECTRONIX.COM LEICA-WORLD.COM
LEICA-XAMERA.COM LEICA-XYZ.COM LEICA-YH.COM
LEICA.COM LEICA.NET LEICA.ORG LEICA6983.COME-LEICA.COM
ECOMIR-LEICA.COM ICP-LEICA.COM LCP-LEICA.COM
NEW-LEICA.COM
SLOW-LEICA.COM UR-LEICA.COM
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sorry if cut-and-paste text got a bit brokenup <grin>

Axel

Axel Sanders

[joachimeh]

I guess you give a wrong impression. Looking at the last entry (before *.com etc.) all point to Leica-owned subsidiaries. They are the legal owners of those websites.

[stunsworth]

No idea, why not ask them?

Not sure why this is in the digital forum.

[marknorton]

There are three companies which derive from the original Ernst Leitz Wetzlar GmbH - Leica Camera AG, Leica Microsystems GmbH, Leica Geosystems AG.

Leica Microsystems owns the Leica trademark and licences it to Leica Camera. Leica Camera owns such trade-marks at "Elmarit", "Summilux" and "Summicron".

My own experience of this type of cyber-squatting is that it's not worth the effort to try to straighten things out unless it's really damaging.

A variant of my company's web-site (.com instead of .co.uk) used to bring up a pornography site which wasn't helpful to my business. I've since managed to buy the .com URL from some outfit in South Korea...

[aXs]

Originally Posted by joachimeh

... looking at the last entry... before *.com... all point to Leica-owned subsidiaries... legal owners of those websites.

Thanks joachimmeh, but I did mention it is a random search and I am curious -so did a search of eBay re-sellers - and their linked URLs. No, they do not claim to be Leica-companies

( just checked the" whois" again for a few random names - same goes).

But back to my question: What do you think? could any private camera-user/collector, camera re-seller, eBay-reseller - just register "Leica"?

Axel

Axel Sanders

[stnami]

Does this mean you are making those great motorcycles again?

[luigi bertolotti]

Eh...what's in a name ?.... I'm not a lawyer, but think :

- If I decide to setup a camera manufacturing company, and decide to name it "Leica", I'm surely have not the right to do it, unless I register it in some "strange country" and try to sell my products in "strange countries" only (no GATT members or so....)

- If I decide to open a camera shop, and decide to name it "Leica Photo" I can absolutely do it... if Leica co. or its importer decides I'm not a right dealer for them... so worst (or better ?) for me... I'll display new & used Leica items for sale... Leica stickers everywhere... surely there will be simply some logo ("official" "authorized"...) I'm surely forbidden to make use of.

I think on the Net similar rules apply... BTW... I would be curious on how many graphics item - logos - fonts and so are real registered property of Leica Camera and other Leica entity (Geosystem, Micro) ... the Leica engraving on the LTMs was delicious.
Ferrari's little horse and Maserati's trident are both registered trademarks, for instance... Ferrari is one of the 10 commonest name in Italy... there are number of Mr. Ferrari that incidentally sell autos of various brands...

[aXs]

Originally Posted by marknorton

...my own experience of this type of cyber-squatting is that it's not worth the effort to try to straighten things out unless it's really damaging...A variant of my company's web-site (.com instead of .co.uk) used to bring up a pornography site which wasn't helpful to my business. I've since managed to buy the .com URL from some outfit in South Korea...

Mark,
First, I want to thank you personally for your wonderful presentation of the insides of the Leica M8 camera. For me it was surely one of the most important threads to date. Your Leica M8 presentation and commentary is an innovation in "customer/user - corporate relations". It should be published in hardcover as a book. People would then understand how important thenew Leica M8 really is. (Perhaps you have read other threads about my thoughts about a parallel event awarding people: "Innovation Inspired by Leica").

But back to my question:
What do you think? Could any private camera-user/collector, camera re-seller, eBay-reseller - just register "Leica"?

Axel
Axel Sanders

What is the URL of your website - the one you mentioned?

[aXs]

Originally Posted by stnami

...does this mean you are making those great motorcycles again?

Hello stnami, I just wrote a comment to yours (on another thread) - and I do like your idea for your using a remote webcam in Berlin - connecting Australia to Berlin for a parallel event along the lines of "Challenge" events. The webcam - yes, could be mounted on one of those "great motorcycles". Thanks for the creative input!

I would like to add, that the LUG-famous "malland and stnami" dialogues are good reading - ideally the two of you should work on a project together?

Back to my question:
What do you think? Could any private camera-user/collector, camera re-seller, eBay-reseller - just register "Leica"?

Axel

Axel Sanders

[joachimeh]

Originally Posted by aXs

Thanks joachimmeh, but I did mention it is a random search and I am curious -so did a search of eBay re-sellers - and their linked URLs. No, they do not claim to be Leica-companies

( just checked the" whois" again for a few random names - same goes).

But back to my question: What do you think? could any private camera-user/collector, camera re-seller, eBay-reseller - just register "Leica"?

Axel

Axel Sanders

at least in Germany the label is protected. The use in public has to be granted by the owner.

[zapp]

Leica Geosystems
Leica Microsystems
Leica Camera

Have a joint agreement on using the name Leica. All the others are just side shots that are not worth following up

[aXs]

Originally Posted by luigi bertolotti

...what's in a name... if I setup a camera shop and name it "Leica Photo" I can absolutely do it... I would be curious on how many Leica-brand graphics, logos are real registered property...

Hello Luigi Bertolotti,
first, I want to tell you that I love your beach portraits of your daughters. And I also enjoyed reading your tales of romantic-adverture with a briefly owned Leica Noctilux - back at a time when you were a young man in the Dolomite mountains.
But I also read your story about the tragic fate of the owner of a camera shop in your home town who commited suicide (and your emotions for having purchased from this same man, his Leica lense dating back from wartime WWII). I think eveytime you hold that lense in your hand and do photography with it, you'll remember this man who previously owned the lense.

Back to my question:
Could any private camera-user/collector, camera re-seller, eBay-reseller - just register "Leica"?

I understand your opinion is: " in Italy... you can absolutely do it..."

To check your theory about Italy - I googled "Leica", "Italy" and looked at the www.leicatime.com. The URL contains the name "Leica" and pictures on the website display leather products branded "Leicatime" with a similiar "Leica"-like logo-script - so I guess you're right about things in Italy. Thanks Luigi.

Axel

Axel Sanders

[stunsworth]

When I set up my website I wanted to use some images from the then Leica site. So I emailed Leica, explained how I proposed to use them, and they emailed back to say they were more than happy for me to use the images. Perhaps Luigi did the same.

[aXs]

Originally Posted by zapp

Leica Geosystems...Leica Microsystems...Leica Camera...Have a joint agreement on using the name Leica. All the others are just side shots that are not worth following up

zapp, thank you for your input about "...side shots not worth following up...", but that is for Leica Camera AG to decide about side shots or "diluting" the brand (or are you from Leica's legal department?) <grin>

Back to my question:
What do you think? Could any private camera-user/collector, camera re-seller, eBay-reseller - just register "Leica"?

Axel

Axel Sanders

[stunsworth]

Axel, in theory I guess the answer is no since they would not own the trademark 'Leica'. For example www.leicarepairs.com would, I expect, not be allowed. But as has been said above it may not be worth the expense or time on Leica's part to persue the cases.

[bill]

Axel, it really doesn't matter what we think. This is a matter for the lawyers. Some companies protect their brand more assiduously than others. I suspect if you set up a porn website called "Leica Virgins" or similar you would get the robust response you would deserve.

Regards,

Bill

[stnami]

Dunno Madonna did ok just misspelt it...........

[zapp]

Originally Posted by aXs

zapp, thank you for your input about "...side shots not worth following up...", but that is for Leica Camera AG to decide about side shots or "diluting" the brand (or are you from Leica's legal department?) <grin>

Back to my question:
What do you think? Could any private camera-user/collector, camera re-seller, eBay-reseller - just register "Leica"?

Axel

Axel Sanders

There is no law against registering a Leica url. There is on the other hand a brand that has protected the name Leica probably worldwide. You may not use their name in combination with photography or use any of their registered logos. If you do so, they have to complain/sue you. In some countries a company can ask for the registered url. Germany for instance has no commercial url so Shell sued to get shell.de from a guy with the name shell who registered first.
Law is simple. If you think it could be wrong, just don't mess with the big guys.

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