Sensor Cleaning - Kodak speaks

[Michael Jones]

Having read much of what has been said on the forum regarding sensor cleaning I took it upon myself to contact the Image Sensor group at Kodak to determine how Kodak, the designer and manufacturer of the KAF-10500 image sensor for the Leica M8, cleans this sensor during manufacturing and what methods they can recommend for the end user.

I spoke with Mr. Bob McKeever who graciously gave his time to the discussion and here is a summary of the conversation:

1. The KAF-10500 does use ITO (Indium Tin Oxide) technology but this is used in the design of the sensor itself and not on the cover glass.

2. The KAF-10500 cover glass is coated on both the top and bottom surface with an AR (anti-reflective) coating.

3. The Kodak Application Note MTD/PS-0237 on cover glass cleaning, Revision 2 dated 2001 is a valid document for the cleaning of the KAF-10500 cover glass.

4. Kodak uses a high grade iso propanol or 200 proof Ethyl Alcohol for cover glass cleaning. Kodak does not use or recommend Methanol because it has poorer cleaning properties, is toxic, and, if denatured, the denaturing components can leave a residue.

5. The only item out of date in the Application Note is the recommendation to use Kodak lens cleaning paper, catalog number 154 6027. Kodak no longer manufactures lens cleaning paper. An equivalent paper for cleaning precision optics could also be used.

6. Kodak cannot recommend specific third party cleaning fluids because if Kodak tested a sample of a third party fluid today and found it acceptable, there is no guarantee that the manufacturer would not change the formulation at a later time.

So there it is from Kodak, the desiner and manufacturer of the KAF-10500 sensor manufactured for Leica and the M8.

I hope this information has been helpful. I have used Isopropanol to clean the sensor in my M8 and it worked quite well. Though next time, I will try to use a higher concentration as with 70% technical grade, it had a bit too much water which was slow to evaporate. After a few tries though, I was able to get the wetting just right for a spotless swipe.

Regards,

Michael

[ho_co]

Bravo, Michael!

Go to the source and get the answer! Good for you!

(But hasn't that killed our endless-thread forum fun? Thank goodness!)

[colorflow]

Thanks Michael for taking the initiative. Do you know which of the 3rd party solutions are appropriate?

Alan

[tashley]

Ditto thanks, well done for cutting through the... err... dust!

;-)

Tim

[larry]

Michael,

Thanks for demonstrating what someone who has good journalistic instincts can accomplish. Would you like a job? :-)

Larry

[Michael Jones]

Alan, I do not know what therd party fluids would be appropriate. I am a bit puzzled by the preference of so many people for Eclipse cleaning fluid. I have never used this but from my limited understanding, the original Eclipse fluid contains Methanol which is contrary to Kodaks preference. I do not know what the composition of their new E2 fluid is but my guess is that a pint of 200 proof Ethanol or a good grade of isopropanol is less expensive than a pint of Eclipse.

I tried to find Eclipse in three different camera stores (two were Leica dealers) in Amsterdam last week while on vacation and none had any. A local pharmacy was able to supply a 100 ml bottle of high purity 70% isopropanol for 5 Euro. I would prefer a higher concentration as explained in the original post. Time to get out the Fisher Scientific catalog!

Regards,

Michael

[Shootist]

Thank you Michael.

[rwfreund]

Thanks for the research.
I am a bit puzzled about the methyl alcohol and denatured bit, since it is ethanol that gets denatured.
How good a grade do we need?
If residue of less than .001% (10 ppm) is good enough, then 500ml is priced by sciencelab.com at $19.50 the 120ml bottle
Isopropyl Alcohol, Reagent, ACS - Nucleic Acid Purification * 67-63-0
-bob

[Shootist]

Ethyl alcohol is what you drink. It is in every brand of liquor, beer, wine you name it if it is fit to drink, IE not a poison.
Methyl alcohol is wood alcohol. It IS poison.
To denature something it to make it unfit for human consumption. They can add methyl alcohol to Ethyl alcohol so it is a poison and unfit for human consumption, it is a denaturant. If they didn't you would need to pay the tax on it just like you do on a bottle of whiskey.

[robsteve]

The compostion of the Eclipse and Eclipse E2 fluids can be found in the MSDS sheets. Eclipse is 100% Methanol, Eclipse E2 is composed of Ethyl Alcohol, Methyl Alcohol and Isopropyl Alcohol .

http://www.photosol.com/documents/ms...pe_eclipse.pdf

http://www.photosol.com/documents/MSDS%20-%20E2.pdf

[rvaubel]

Originally Posted by Shootist

Ethyl alcohol is what you drink. It is in every brand of liquor, beer, wine you name it if it is fit to drink, IE not a poison.
Methyl alcohol is wood alcohol. It IS poison.
To denature something it to make it unfit for human consumption. They can add methyl alcohol to Ethyl alcohol so it is a poison and unfit for human consumption, it is a denaturant. If they didn't you would need to pay the tax on it just like you do on a bottle of whiskey.

If you live in Nevada, you can pick up a pint of Everclear in any liquor store for about 4 bucks. Thats 190 proof or 95% per ethanol. That is enough cleaning agent for every M8 made so far.
Be warned however, the stuff is so hydroscopic that if you try to drink it straight, it sucks the water out of the tissues in your throat causing your throught to constrict and may cause death. Put a little Wild Turkey 101 in it to dilute it

Rex

[cbretteville]

Thanks Michael, much appreciated.
This information matches what came via Guy from Stefan Daniels

Item 24 Recommended cleaning of sensor? "Professional DSLR cleaning kits from 3rd parties can be used. We recommend Iso-Propanol based systems. In general it should be tried first to remove the dirt with a dry cleaning method."

- Carl

[Bill Wendlandt]

I think I will dump out my Eclipse fluid and replace it with Everclear in the bottle. If Kodak ships the sensors clean, Leica renders them dirty in the manufacturing process prior to shipping. Even though I am extremely careful, I sitll get spots on the sensor. I wonder if the actuating of the shutter throws off some sort of residue that is picked up by the sensor.

[albertknappmd]

Ok... Any ideas as to where one can pick up some 200 proof (100%) ethyl alcohol (aka ethanol) or high grade isopropyl alcohol (aka isopropanol) ?

[fotografr]

Originally Posted by albertknappmd

Ok... Any ideas as to where one can pick up some 200 proof (100%) ethyl alcohol (aka ethanol) or high grade isopropyl alcohol (aka isopropanol) ?

Dehydrated Ethanol, 200 Proof, BiotechGrade

500 ML should be enough for just about every M8 owner on the forum.

Cheers!!

[albertknappmd]

Spoke with Joel at Photographic solutions, the makers of Eclipse and Eclipse E2. I e-mailed him this thread and asked for his comments.
In summary, he stated the following:
1. They have been making Eclipse for the past ten years and have only had to replace 3 sensors during that time. They stand behind their product.
2. Eclipse E2 is the next generation solvent and contains both methanol and ethanol. It is to REPLACE Eclipse in the future as it is a better solvent, having ethanol as a component.
3. Eclipse E2 was developed by SONY for cleaning of CCD sensors and is licensed ( I assume) to Photographic solutions.

I asked Joel to post a message on this thread so as to clarify everything.
The debate rages on....

[j. borger]

I think the answers are very clear ..... "use standard Eclipse or E2 as you please but nobody will guarantee anything" ...... but from all the answers i can't imagine a sensor cleaning with standard eclipse every 4-5 months will damage the M8 sensor in any way ... because NOBODY (Leica, Photosol, Kodak) takes this thread serious enough for a strong warning against using conventional Eclipse. Which was good enough for all cameras for many years!
Sensor cleaning, batteries, chargers, focus accuracy of lenses .... seems like everything is rocket-science these days ......

[ho_co]

I don't agree that "the debate rages on."

Michael asked Kodak what they use to clean sensors with, and they answered.

On another thread, Leica told us what they use.

Now Al has asked Photo Solutions to take a stance. Super, but not on topic. Of course they stand behind their product and can enumerate its advantages. We wouldn't expect them to say, "Well, yeah. Kodak's way is better and cheaper. We just change formulas from time to time to keep our product in people's minds." (Oh, and a little ego digression: I surmised that Eclipse E2 would be the replacement for Eclipse on another thread as well.)

And as JB said, Eclipse has been good enough for years and will continue to be good enough till it's replaced.

To me, there isn't a "debate." Any commercial product is fine, or we can go the way Kodak goes. Until we get a camera with a sensor of different materials, we're fine as we are.

And just for completeness' sake, someone ought to call Sony and find out what they use for sensor cleaning, since they've now been implicated in the development of Eclipse E2.

Thanks, Dr Knapp, for requesting a source for high-grade ethanol, and thanks, Brent, for supplying the information!

--HC

[albertknappmd]

We should all take a bit of the 200 proof ethanol and add it to some OJ ! We will all chill out !

[fotografr]

Originally Posted by albertknappmd

We should all take a bit of the 200 proof ethanol and add it to some OJ ! We will all chill out !

I think I'll stick to my 25 year old Springbank.