M8 DNG WB - consistently warmer than - JPEG WB

[MP3]

Hi Folks

Seeking opinions from more experienced members here.

As the thread title stated, it is easy for us to shoot DNG+JPEG and find out the DNG is consistently warmer than its JPEG counterpart, no matter under what color temp.

We all understand the JPEGs are in-camera processed accordingly to M8's specified WB settings. So does it indicate that the Kodak DNGs are consistently captured in a warmer color temp? I seems to have come across some literature on this issue.

Even when we shoot DNG only, the LCD review pictures display the 'DNG embedded JPEG thumbnail' first, then display the DNG capture one second later. The later DNG is warmer.

If we are shooting mainly DNG in our workflow AND want to minimize post-processing, we may need to deliberately set the WB (Kelvin Temp) to 300K lower to compensate for this effect.

Anyone here have more details on this issue?

I'm not complaining on M8's WB system as we all know it is weird enough. Just want to figure out a consent on this as I use the Kelvin temp setting in most of my shooting.

Thank you for your kind advice!

Best
Matthew

[j. borger]

Originally Posted by MP3

If we are shooting mainly DNG in our workflow AND want to minimize post-processing, we may need to deliberately set the WB (Kelvin Temp) to 300K lower to compensate for this effect. ..............

Hello Matthew,

Do you prefer cooler to warmer in all circumstances Probably not.
Would not it be far more convenient to choose the whitebalance settings you like from the 1st picture of a shoot in C1 (using a colorprofile you like!!!)... tweak it to your personal taste or the scene you saw ... and after that apply these settings to all images of that particular shoot .... this is a one click action in capture one.
This would be far more logic than trying to simulate a Jpeg which is based on automatic factory settings and inaccurate colorinterpretation ...

[wattsy]

It's not just about WB settings. I use DNGs to gain the general benefits associated with a RAW workflow but I have consistently noticed that the JPEGs (when I shoot DNG + JPEG) look to have the better colour - certainly when compared with making the DNG conversion in C1LE. This is especially so with greens. I can of course fiddle with the colour in post but it would be nice if the 'default' C1 conversion was as good (in terms of colour) out of the box as the JPEGs are.

[j. borger]

Originally Posted by wattsy

It's not just about WB settings. I use DNGs to gain the general benefits associated with a RAW workflow but I have consistently noticed that the JPEGs (when I shoot DNG + JPEG) look to have the better colour - certainly when compared with making the DNG conversion in C1LE. This is especially so with greens. I can of course fiddle with the colour in post but it would be nice if the 'default' C1 conversion was as good (in terms of colour) out of the box as the JPEGs are.

What is default ??? A custom made profile or one provided by one of the users at this forum can be turned into your default and is possibly better or more up to your taste than the factory canned default ..... this is true with all cameras BTW, not only the M8.

THis is where you have choices,,,,.... to choose a "film" you like!

[eronald]

Originally Posted by j. borger

What is default ??? A custom made profile or one provided by one of the users at this forum can be turned into your default and is possibly better or more up to your taste than the factory canned default ..... this is true with all cameras BTW, not only the M8.

THis is where you have choices,,,,.... to choose a "film" you like!

Yes, with many cameras the Jpeg quality can be "better" in some cases than what you get with the Raw processor of your choice. The two often have completely different code so one cannot necessarily imitate the other perfectly, and the "white balance" settings don't necessarily match. Adobe Raw is notorious for strange white balance settings which don't match colorimeters.

Edmund

[MP3]

Originally Posted by j. borger

Hello Matthew,

Do you prefer cooler to warmer in all circumstances Probably not.
Would not it be far more convenient to choose the whitebalance settings you like from the 1st picture of a shoot in C1 (using a colorprofile you like!!!)... tweak it to your personal taste or the scene you saw ... and after that apply these settings to all images of that particular shoot .... this is a one click action in capture one.
This would be far more logic than trying to simulate a Jpeg which is based on automatic factory settings and inaccurate colorinterpretation ...

Hi Borger

What you're suggesting is exactly what I'm doing in my C1 workflow. No problem on that.

What I want to clarify here is: whether the kodak sensor's DNG capture is consistently ~300 - 500K warmer than the Kelvin setting we specified. Sometimes I'm really tired of PP and want to get it bingo right out of the camera. So I take the kelvin temp as just another parameter, like aperture, shutter speed, ISO, kelvin temp, etc. It's just me right now...

BTW I shot other camera with RAW and don't find such discrepancy in RAW and JPEG pictures. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming on M8. It has simply give me so much joy. I just want to fully understand it and make it to its full potential.

Cheers
Matthew

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by eronald

Adobe Raw is notorious for strange white balance settings which don't match colorimeters

Interesting, isn't the white balance setting a function of the camera rather than the format of the RAW file, or am I missing something?

[j. borger]

With the M8 in camera options are not good or reliable enough .....for now!
Getting warmer or colder looking files can be caused by using different kelvin but also by giving different colerinterpretation ....... For instance a file converted with Jamies Chrome profile looks MUCH warmer than the same file converted with same kelvin settings using his low saturation profile. ..........
So if the colorprofiles are inaccurate or completely missing (like in ACR for now) .... the whole concept of colortemperature/ wb gets a bit fuzzy ......
Contrast and saturation settings might also differ between in camera Jpeg settings and the settings in the converter ... these settings also influence the perceived "warmth' of a file!
Jpeg results are just the results of ONE interpretation .... with many variables....

[wattsy]

Originally Posted by j. borger

What is default ??? A custom made profile or one provided by one of the users at this forum can be turned into your default and is possibly better or more up to your taste than the factory canned default ..... this is true with all cameras BTW, not only the M8.

THis is where you have choices,,,,.... to choose a "film" you like!

I take your point but none of the profiles I have tried so far (the C1 profiles, Jamie's, etc.) quite matches the colour of the in-camera processed JPEGs. Don't get me wrong, this is not a big thing to me - I still choose to use DNG for better control over WB, sharpening, etc. - but I wouldn't be unhappy if Phase One were to tweak the M8 profile so that conversions using this profile better matched the M8 JPEG colour.