M and R lens Character

[guy_mancuso]

Just trying to get my lens selection down for the M8 and being a DMR and leica r user for some time now and noting the differences in the fingerprint or look of different R lenses. case in point the Summilux compared to the Summricrons like the 80 lux compared to the 90 apo we have the soft pleasing look of the 80 in the wide open apertures and the 90 APO having that more punch sharp clinical look. So on the R side of the house I have many lenses or had many lenses with this different character. Now i assuming the M is relatively the same ( yes after 31 years as a Pro I am a virgin to M , yes i missed a lot) between the summilux and summricrons but i have been noticing different comments on pre -asph and asph . My initial choices of lenses are sort of opposite the R because I can render a different look, case in point the 80 R lux for that nice pleasing soft stuff but get the 75mm F2 in the M for the more clinical style. Anyway the area of 35mm lens has me confused a little because of the choices , my initial plan was 24mm 2.8, 35 1.4 asph and the 75 f2. Now i decided to sell my 35 1.4 lux R lens because the M is a better one, we all know this. The question really comes up with non asph. and really is there that much difference in area's like CA and flare that i need to be concerned about, I realize the ASPH is the best you can buy and we don't need to debate that but if i went non-asph do we think I would really be missing out on anything. Now on the same token the 35mm cron F2 is like other crons in it's look. This is just one area that is tough to decide. I am still going back and forth on the 21 or 24mm. But i could use my very outstanding R 19mm with a adapter from R to M and make use out of it using the LCD as the framing tool and using hyperfocal distance when i actually need it for very wide work. basically i can cheat here until I get the 4th M lens. now having said all that i should point i am not a DMR user because i am not picky it is the very reason why i shoot the DMR professionally is because i am picky as hell and will only want the absolute best i can get my hands on. but the M8 is sort of the extra system and a little money savings would certainly keep the wife from riding my back with this purchase. Just some idea's would be helpful and some friendly thoughts. Thanks Guy

I should point out that i am extremely well versed in digital so we can leave that discussion off the table.

[philipotto]

Guy,
I know that when it comes down to it, you will be getting the latest ASPH lenses.
You demand the best, and by gosh you'll get it.
You're worth it!

[guy_mancuso]

Thanks Phillip that is what i am afraid of , you can only rob the same bank once but twice you get caught

[robsteve]

Guy:

I may be a bit confused, but if you were asking about the old non ASPH 35mm Summilux, it is very soft and has a glow to it that made for a nice B&W shooter, but I doubt you would want it for a M8.

The 75mm F2 APO will probably perform about the same or a tad better than the 90mm APO for the R. The 75mm Summilux is very similar in performance to the 80mm Summilux, so you have that covered already. According to your favorite lens reviewer, the 28mm Summicorn ASPH is the best wide angle Leica has ever made, followed by the 24mm ASPH. You would probably be happier with the 28mm and the extra stop.

I expect the 90mm to be a bit difficult to get used to because of the small frame lines for it. It would be like shooting the 135mm on the .72 mag M series, which I seldom used.

Historically, the most used lenses in the modern M line was the 35mm followed by the 50mm. This would translate to probably a 24mm or 28mm and the 35mm, with the 50mm fitting into where people would use a 75mm.

If I were you, I would start with a 35mm lens and go from there. In my opinion, the 35mm Summicron ASPH is a better lens than the Summilux ASPH, mainly just in contrast/look, which may be a moot point with digital, as you can adjust for this in capture. You would probably be happier with the extra stop of the Summilux ASPH.

As for your other lenses, it may be easier to borrow a few and see what you like before buying. Leica has a loaner program just for this purpose.

You will want a Noctilux once you shoot with one, so don't worry about the 50mm or 70mm lenses until you get a chance to try out a Noctilux first or in tandem with the others.

[albertwang]

There are some lens which I prefer the older version for certain purposes. Not every shot needs ASPH treatment.

[kidigital]

Guy, I agree with Robert about the Noctilux. There are literally thousands of posts out there pontificating on the strengths and weaknesses of the lens. I picked one up to use with the RD-1 as I felt that I just couldn't pass up something that could be so creatively interesting. Frankly, I wasn't expecting much wide open. So I was amazed at just how good the lens is at f1. It is probably more sharp than the 35R and 80R wide-open. What I like most about the lens is the unpredictability of the background bokeh. It gives me images that look as close to medium format bokeh as I have seen in 35mm. And, size-wise, it is about the same size as a 50/1.4R (a giant for M shooters, but compact in the eyes of R shooters).

Minimum focus on the Noctilux is longer and it takes longer to focus, but I just can't not use it.

[albertwang]

Originally Posted by kidigital

It gives me images that look as close to medium format bokeh as I have seen in 35mm.

Good comparison... could you provide an example of what medium format bokeh is relative to 35mm?

[guy_mancuso]

Kind of sounds like go for the 35mm summicron and the Nocto for the speed would be one way to go. That is interesting .

[rosuna]

How good is the Noctilux stopping down?

[harmsr]

Guy,

Give me a call or we can meet up at Photomart on Friday. You are welcome to try some of my lenses.

I would strongly suggest the 35 Lux ASPH over the 35 Cron ASPH here in AZ.

I know that a lot of people like the Nocti, but overall I think you would really prefer the 50 Lux ASPH. It is a much more versatile lens.

I also have the 75 Cron ASPH and just recently acquired the 28 Cron ASPH.

I really don't shoot super-wide and did not want the confusion (for me) over using both the 24 and 35 lines which are paired closely together.

I have had in the past 50 Lux Pre-ASPH, 35 Cron ASPH, 90 Cron APO, and also still do have the 50 Cron DR. I can give you a CD with original scans off my Nikon Super Coolscan 5000 ED from these and my current lenses. You decide after seeing the files.

IMHO - in the 28 to 90 range you can't beat the 28 Cron ASPH, 35 Lux ASPH, 50 Lux ASPH, and 75 Cron ASPH.

Best,

Ray

[sean_reid]

Hi Guy,

As you know, I think that a lot of this comes down to taste. I would also recommend the 35/1.4 Asph. Summilux, however, because it's fast and just a wonderful lens in all respects. I also agree that the 50/1.4 Asph. Summilux is a very versatile lens, much smaller and lighter than the Noct. and *much* faster to focus. The Noct. is a very special lens but it, understandably, has a very slow focus ratio. Unless you really need that last stop, I'd recommend the 50/1.4 first.

If it's of interest, below is a link to a fairly extensive review I did of fast lenses on the R-D1. People who don't know any better may tell you that a lens' performance on the R-D1 won't tell you anything about it's potential on the M8. Ignore them, usually they haven't used either camera and are talking out of their hats <G> Also, since you're shopping, see my reviews of the 21s, 24/25s and 50s on the RR site.

Luminous landscape

That article might be a good resource for you.

Cheers,

Sean

[Jamie Roberts]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

Kind of sounds like go for the 35mm summicron and the Nocto for the speed would be one way to go. That is interesting .

Guy--I'm not sure what you're going to use the M8 for, but for me I'm also looking at the new 28 Elmarit 2.8 they've announced. Yes, it's a little slower, but it's also extremely compact and with the crop that's your 35mm walk around lens...

If ISO 2500 works, I won't mind working at 2.8 for events

But of course I *want* the Nocti and the 35 lux, too I guess for a "longer lens" the 90 ASPH is the way to go.

I'm also going to look at some of the older lenses too... many steps in PS saved by a lens that already does some funky things

[ho_co]

Guy--
I won't make specific recommendations, but I will say that the comparisons in your thread-opener are quite accurate. In both the M and the R lines, the more modern designs (Apo and Asph) have much more 'snap,' while the older lenses have a softer character.

One thing to keep in mind with the M is that the physically larger lenses intrude into the viewfinder frame--Noctilux & 75 Summilux in particular. This will be slightly less troublesome with the M8 because of smaller viewfinder magnification and reduced-field frame lines, but still quite noticeable to an "M virgin."

Although I am a great fan of my 75/1.4 (much softer, gentler performance than the 75 Summicron), I would warn you not to buy more aperture than you need. All the current lenses are fully usable wide open. Discontinued lenses were all good in their day but have been supplanted by better.

--HC

[guy_mancuso]

Ray lets do met up for the M8 showing for sure , be fun to go over it together.

[guy_mancuso]

Thanks Sean i will certainly read that article . Howard you make a good point also and being around the R system i have learned a great deal on what these lenses can LOOK like. The R system is just a tad easier to figure because there is less lenses in the pile. The M without even venturing out to Zeiss and others there are some differences in just the M leica line . i also learned one very important lesson there really are no dogs to avoid when it comes to leica glass , okay the R maybe has one or two .

Whats hard for me to decide is what exactly i will use this system for given i have a full range for the DMR but i really want this more for personal reasons more than anything else . i want something that i can take anywhere and get awesome results without the roller bag in tow. There is more to it than that but anyway i also see this as a event camera higher ISO in the low light , easier to see and focus and please don't kill me for saying this a better TTL flash with the Metz 54. i also see this as the backup to the DMR in certain way also . So trying to justify the purchase I do have to make a business case in my mind, of course I am the boss so it is easier. LOL

I really do like the 35 lux idea overall and since my R 35mm is a bear to focus it can easily take it's place and perform better to boot, so that was were I was leaning. i think the 24mm is also the answer for event work a really great focal length. i do need to play with these though and that is the area where I am lacking the experience of them. being new to the RF system it will be a major change for me. The nice thing is i am not doing this blindly with all the experience in digital and the R system will really make this easier . i am sure for many folks it is a daunting decision making time that are walking into this and another reason i was inquiring what folks thought. It actually is a good topic of understanding the look of leica and frankly this is really what the heart of the matter is the glass.

[guy_mancuso]

i will admit that darn 28mm lens that is coming out sure does have a nice price tag on it. i agree James it would certainly be a nice little lens

[pascal_meheut]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

I am still going back and forth on the 21 or 24mm.

I had the same hesitation and finally, I'm going for the 24mm because I do not like external viewfinders, even the small 28mm one. It means using 1 viewfinder for framing and the other one for focusing. This is convenient when you do not focus, using hyperfocal but I'm not sure it will be as efficient with the M8 as it was with film.

Besides, I'll keep my 28/2 ASPH, 35/2 ASPH and 50/2 and replace the 90/2 AA by the 75/2.
My travel light kit will be 28 & 75 and the full set will probably be 24, 28, 50 & 75.

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

i want something that i can take anywhere and get awesome results without the roller bag in tow.

Hi Guy,

In that case, stay with the smaller lenses.

It would really be a great idea for you to pick up a used film RF (even a Bessa) just to start to get a feel for these RF things. It could be fun too. You can sell it when the M8 comes in and not lose much because it won't have cost much to begin with.

Cheers,

Sean

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by pascal_meheut

I had the same hesitation and finally, I'm going for the 24mm because I do not like external viewfinders.

I agree and gave Guy the same suggestion by e-mail. The fact that the 24's FOV can be seen in the finder can be very important.

Cheers,

Sean

[pascal_meheut]

Originally Posted by sean_reid

In that case, stay with the smaller lenses.

I agree too. Unless you need the extra f-stop, a Leica M is more convenient to use with a smaller lens. I sold the 35/1.4 ASPH for the 35/2 ASPH the second it came out.
Of course, this is not an absolute rule: for instance, I prefer a 90/2 to a 90/2.8.