M8 will arrive soon - saving 75% on lenses or removing fun and magic?

[mdfr]

I will have my M8 hopefully within next 2 weeks. It´s my first Leica, my first M. So I don´t have any lenses for the M yet.

The camera is planned to be used beside Nikon DSLR / Hasselblad MF for daily use / street photographie / portraits.

Now I´m planning the lenses and found that Leica (of course) has very nice and desirable lenses. At a high, but on the first view also reasonible price compared with the top lenses for Nikon and the Zeiss´for the Hasselblad.

BUT: then I saw the lenses of Voigtländer and could not believe these differences in prices combined with the good reputation and remarks on these lenses you can find everywhere and also in this forum. Nothing bad said like you´ll find when reading about Sigma/Tamron whatever lenses for e.g. Nikon. So I start to calculate since it sounds (too?) good:

As a starting equipment I planned to buy: 28 and 50 and 75 mm, all Summicron at f:2.0.
In total I´d have to spend in Euro (2.900+1.500+2.400) 6.800 (USD 5.200) or approx. Euro 8.800 (USD 6.800) if purchasing the Summicron 28 and 35 and 50mm as Summilux f 1.4.

The prices for the fastest Voigtländer´s are:
Ultron 28, 1.9: Euro 600
Nokton 50, 1.5: Euro 500
Color Heliar 75, 2.5: Euro 500

Total Euro: 1.600.- (USD 1.250) (not including adaptors from M39 to M).

Let´s dont´t consider some better offers on the Leica´s - just regarding the suggested retail prices.

It´s a difference of over Euro 5.000 / 7.000 (USD 3.800 / 5.400) for these three lenses!

Am I wrong with comparing these lenses?
Will I kill the M8´s possibilties and the quality with these Voigtländer lenses?
Do I disturb the magic just because being a nitpicker?
Will I regret it?

Kind regards

Michael

[neila]

Voigtländer are good, but there's an additional quality to Leica in my humble opinion.

I bought a Voigtländer 35mm some while ago, I quite liked it, but it persuaded me to go out and buy the Leica 35mm which I love!

I reckon you'll get some good advice here - but my advice would be to consider one decent Leica lense (my personal favourite is the 50mm Summicron f/2) and see how you get on with it....

I really don't think you'll spoil the magic of the M8 putting a Voigtländer lens on it - far from it. But Leica will give some extra sparkle to your shots - no question....

[tashley]

My technique is to buy Leica for my main lenses (currently 50mm f1.4 and 24mm f2.8, soon to add something 35mm f1.4 as my new 'standard') but then to add other, cheaper lenses for less frequent use - currently 15mm VC and probably soon a very old 90mm Leica Elmar f4.

The Leica are generally better I believe, particularly unless you want to get into DIY home coding, but they cost so much more that you need to use them a lot to get the value!

BTW I've had my M8 for 2 months, have shot more images on it than on my 5D (a very fine camera itself) in the previous ten months, and find the combination of lightness, immediacy and lens quality has given my photography a real shot in the arm. Hope you love your as much as I do!

Tim

[grober]

Welcome to the Leica disease! It's completely incurable, you know.

As an M-shooter for over forty years, I heartily recommend that AT LEAST one of your lenses must be a Summicron. This particular family of Leica optics so thoroughly defines the brand that you must have at least one. Both Zeiss and CV lenses provide good images and offer tremendous value, but thay don't quite render those special differances you can see in your images when shot through a Summicron.

In my own case, as soon as the M8 rumors were verified two years ago, I started the planning/selling cycle to re-arrange my lenses into a mix that would be most usable (for me) on the new digital-M. Two of my most often used five Leica lenses are Summicrons. Of my other M-lenses, I use two from CV, one from Zeiss and one old Canon RF lens with an adapter. Both the Zeiss and Canon wide angles will probably go to the block soon as I plan to take advantage of Leica's 30% discount offer before June of this year.

I'm not giivng you more specific details because every lens choice is personal. Make your own choices but, please, buy at least one Summicron.

-g

[wparsonsgisnet]

First, I use all Leica lenses, but I suggest you decide on some Voightlander lenses, or some older Leica lenses, and that you buy on Ebay (or at least used).

One way I was able to buy Leica lenses at the beginning was to make payments over time to the dealer. In this fashion I bought a used Noctilux.

Then, when you want a newer Leica lens, sell the starter ones.

[fotografr]

How are you doing your currency conversions? Currently Euro 8.800 is USD 11,440. I certainly wish it went the other way.

My suggestion, based on nearly 30 years of Leica M shooting, would be to buy fewer lenses and have them be Leica. Yes, the Voigtländers have good sharpness, but there are other very discernable differences: Contrast, color rendition, lack of barrelling distortion, reduced chromatic aberration, resistance to flare, bokeh, all factor in to creating a "Leica look" that you will not get with other lenses. I would highly recommend starting with the M8 and just one lens--either the new 28 Elmarit asph, or the 35 Summicron asph. After a while, when you strongly feel the need to go wider or longer, add another lens to your bag. You may well find you don't need anything longer that a 50mm (66.5mm on the M8), but of course it all depends on the kind of shooting you want to do.

[Olof]

Originally Posted by mdfr

I will have my M8 hopefully within next 2 weeks. It´s my first Leica, my first M. So I don´t have any lenses for the M yet.

The lenses make the (technikal) picture, not the body..go for Leica lenses !

[cbretteville]

Pick one lens that will be your main focal length - get the one you expect you'll use the most. Get a second hand one made by Leica. Something like a 50 Summicron - current formula, but previous mount. Here is one listed at €550: https://www.leicashop.com/main.php?leicaopen=1&kat=04&kat2=29&orderno=13261_ 2

Get the lesser used ones from CV (or Zeiss). Build your kit over time to lessen the pain on the wallet.

- Carl

[mdfr]

Brent, oops, of course you´re right - wrong direction. Sorry. M.

[asfeir]

......

As a starting equipment I planned to buy: 28 and 50 and 75 mm, all Summicron at f:2.0.
In total I´d have to spend in Euro (2.900+1.500+2.400) 6.800 (USD 5.200) or approx. Euro 8.800 (USD 6.800) if purchasing the Summicron 28 and 35 and 50mm as Summilux f 1.4.

The prices for the fastest Voigtländer´s are:
Ultron 28, 1.9: Euro 600
Nokton 50, 1.5: Euro 500
Color Heliar 75, 2.5: Euro 500

Total Euro: 1.600.- (USD 1.250) (not including adaptors from M39 to M).

....

The conversion Euro to USD is not right: 1 Euro is 1.31 USD not the other way around

[mdfr]

Thanks a lot to all of you for your opinions and effort in convincing me.

I was afraid to read what I read.

It´s just a new idea to me in lenses for Leica that the technical details of e.g. CV & Zeiss lenses are so close to the Leica lenses and even the haptics of CV & Co are not an issue (as they´re in e.g. lenses for Nikon F made by Sigma/ Tamron etc. - it´s easy not to desire them) and there are still good reasons to buy Leica.

So I´ll follow your advices and buy (yes, at least, thanks grober) Leica lenses in the main lenght (Cron 35mm?).

But if it really is an desease (and it seems so to me) don´t you think Summilux would be a better choice instead of Summicron? If spending so much, why not starting "right" from the very first beginning?

One after one: (if pain in the wallet is not considered now)

Summicron 28 plus Noctilux 50 plus Summilux 75?

Or is this (most expensive and fastest) way too much into the other direction?
To say it with Buddha: shall I find a way in the middle or are the three lenses above desirable?

Best regards
Michael

[dennersten]

I would advice you to surf around a lot and se pictures and compare them before you buy. I own: A Noctilux 50/1.0, Summicron 50/2.0, Elmarit 28/2.8 (3 gen), Summicron 90/2 ASPH, Elmarit 90/2.8. Summicron-C 40/2. Summicron 35/2 ASPH
and:
CV 15/4.5
CV 21/4

When watching the my pictures, i almost always getting the, magic/hug in the chest/Leica feeling, with the Noctilux, 35/2, and CV 15/4.5,
Sometimes with 40/2, 28/2.8
Rarely with CV 21/4 and my 90 mm lenses.

It's just me, my style of shooting, my taste, and i am possibly a very poor tele - shooter.

CV have excellent lenses, small, cheap, sharp, but gives you another look than the Leica lenses. I love the 15 lens but the 21 i don't like the looks of. Try to find samples and see if it's your taste.

[chrism]

This all comes down to personal choice, but I wouldn't have a Noctilux as my only 50mm as it is too big and heavy (I don't have one but for a long while I used my M7 with a Nokton 35/1.2 which is about the same size and weight). Remember also the crop factor that will turn your 50mm lens into a 67mm - which is really nice for informal portraits indoors, but is definitely a short telephoto in feel, not a 'normal' lens.

Chris

[carstenw]

The Noctilux is very heavy, and has a special look. I think the Summilux Asph or Summicron is likely to satisfy more people. You should test a Noctilux before deciding on one.

You should also read some comparisons of Leica and Voigtländer lenses before deciding. Sean Reid has some great reviews with test shots and lots of explanations. http://www.reidreviews.com/. It does cost a yearly subscription fee, but is well worth it, IMO. Especially the Ultron 28 is meant to be really great.

Having said that, I plan on owning Leica 28 Cron, 50 Lux Asph and 75 Cron or Lux lenses myself, in addition to my CV15. I am just a snob though, and happen to have a decently paying job, no wife, no children, no car and no dog.

[sean_reid]

For starters, you may want to look at my review of 28 mm lenses on the M8. Mine is a subscription site but it will give you a good deal of information about how the Leica, Zeiss and CV 28 mm lenses compare. The 24/25 mm lenses review will be published soon, followed by tests of other focal lengths. I can say that I often read comments about how lenses from these manufacturers compare that don't match what I see when I actually test them. Leica M lenses, as a rule, are outstanding but they aren't the only exceptional lenses made in M and LTM mount.

I've also tested a number of lenses on the R-D1 which, interestingly enough, is a good platform for demonstrating the some of the differences among lenses. This is true despite the fact that the Epson does not have nearly the same resolution as the M8. Here are two articles I wrote for the free Luminous-Landscape site:

Epson RD-1 Lens Report

Luminous landscape

Note that several lenses, such as the CV Skopars, perform much better on the M8 than they do on the R-D1. Examples include the CV 21/4.0, CV 25/4.0 and CV 28/3.5. All three vignette noticeably on the Epson but do far better on the Leica.

One of the important differences with the Leica lenses for the M8 is that many of them can be permanently coded by Leica and that coding is especially valuable for color work using the 486 filters. Other lenses can be hand-coded but it's not a durable process and it requires some patience, research and creativity. If one works in B&W and likes the look of the M8 files without a 486 filter, the coding is not necessary.

Cheers,

Sean

P.S. Thanks Carsten. We posted at the same time.

[bill vann]

I'll make a couple observations.

First coming from an SLR the CV lenses will absolutley knock your socks off, they are that much better.

I'm playing with 15mmCV, 21 Skopar, 2 28s Elmarit and CV Ultron, 2 35s summicron and ultron, had 2 50s elmarit and CV Nokton and sold the elmarit, 2 90s elmar (old) and CV Apo Lanthar.

the decision as to which to keep is much harder than i expected. coding may be an issue though, it is not easy to code the CVs the way the mouting flanges are.

if i were rich i'd go all leica but as a realist with a budget my bag will be mixed for a while.

don't discount the CVs, they availble used and are cheap enough with enough resale market that you can play for a bit with them.

bill

[blakley]

I don't have the CV 50/1.5 or the CV 75, but I do have the 28/1.9 and it is an absolutely FANTASTIC lens. It's not QUITE as good as the Leica 28/2, but it is very, very close especially considering the price difference. The Nokton (50/1.5) seems by all accounts and pictures on the web also a really wonderful lens, and much, much cheaper than the Noctilux. Unless your heart's really set on the Noctilux, in fact, I would definitely recommend either the CV Nokton or the Leica Summilux (ASPH or pre-ASPH) instead - both are cheaper, more compact, and have better bokeh than the current Noctilux.

As far as 75s go, the CV is probably really good, but the Leica 75/2 Summicron ASPH is in my own personal humble opinion the best 35mm-format lens on the planet, so I'd recommend shelling out for it.

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by bill vann

I'll make a couple observations.

First coming from an SLR the CV lenses will absolutley knock your socks off, they are that much better.

I'm playing with 15mmCV, 21 Skopar, 2 28s Elmarit and CV Ultron, 2 35s summicron and ultron, had 2 50s elmarit and CV Nokton and sold the elmarit, 2 90s elmar (old) and CV Apo Lanthar.

the decision as to which to keep is much harder than i expected. coding may be an issue though, it is not easy to code the CVs the way the mouting flanges are.

if i were rich i'd go all leica but as a realist with a budget my bag will be mixed for a while.

don't discount the CVs, they availble used and are cheap enough with enough resale market that you can play for a bit with them.

bill

Actually, it's very easy to code the LTM CVs if one can find the old Leitz adapters. I've hand-coded the following so far for testing:

21/4
25/4
28/3.5
28/1.9
35/2.5
35/1.7

Cheers,

Sean

[carstenw]

Sean, I have read in another thread that all the Leica 35/2 lenses show f/1.4 in the EXIF, rather than f/2.0. Can you confirm this with your 35s?

[sean_reid]

Originally Posted by carstenw

Sean, I have read in another thread that all the Leica 35/2 lenses show f/1.4 in the EXIF, rather than f/2.0. Can you confirm this with your 35s?

The CV 35s? I don't have a 35 Summicron here right now.

Cheers,

Sean