Are you happy with digital camera designs?

[kamilsukun]

Are you happy with digital camera designs?

Interested in photography for 35 years I find the digital camera designs in general are a bit out of the path of serving the psychology and necessities of the photographer.

As an example I can point out the controls for the final exposure. These were the aperture and shutter in the pre digital days. In digital photography since ISO is also changeable, ISO setting knob must be placed under the photographers fingers as the previous two. But it is not. It is somewhere in the menus. Photographer is conditioned to feel the geography for the film controls at the left of the camera where the rewind knob once were present. A simple knob can be designed there to enable the photographer to control the main settings related to ISO and Color/B&W choice at the left top of the camera.

And, the settings for all, the exposure, shutter and ISO must all be equally displayed in one line at the viewfinder whether or not they are set automatically.

In every new camera I see a slight shift towards a HiFi receiver face design approach. And the orgy of buttons, knobs and switches distract the attention of the photographer off the photograph itself. The silhouette of the new photographer is a person staring at the back of his camera.

Should the manufacturers come together to set the main parameters of digital camera ergonomics. After-all the camera is an instrument. Almost a musical instrument. You can not change the design of a guitar or piano as frequently as a new young designer joins the design team or create a new sound effect.

I wonder what thoughts the valuable members of the forum may have in this matter?

[xxl-user]

Originally Posted by kamilsukun

As an example I can point out the controls for the final exposure. These were the aperture and shutter in the pre digital days. In digital photography since ISO is also changeable, ISO setting knob must be placed under the photographers fingers as the previous two. But it is not. It is somewhere in the menus. Photographer is conditioned to feel the geography for the film controls at the left of the camera where the rewind knob once were present. A simple knob can be designed there to enable the photographer to control the main settings related to ISO and Color/B&W choice at the left top of the camera.

have a look at the nikon d200. you get a very easy control over iso, white balance and quality with the the knob on the right side of the camera!



push the button and turn the wheel. very fast and easy!

arnold

[stunsworth]

Kamil, the buttons are there, but you don't have to press them :-)

The only buttons I use on a regular basis on my Canon 5D are the one to change ISO and the exposure compensation.

[carstenw]

I also don't use the buttons on my 5D the vast majority of the time, except the ISO button and the shutter release The poor feel of the last one (cheap plastic) is something which annoys me, but that is another story.

The Leica M8 really is on its own in the simplicity of the interface. I would like a dedicated ISO button styled like the M3 film rewind crank, but other than that, I am happy with the interface.

[Riley]

i believe that Kamil sees it the way it is
most cameras are pretty dam far from a 5D or a D200, dSLRs make up about 11% of production, what percentage of those do you think are 5D's ? and yet for mainstream they are the best we have to offer (why is it that when someone questions the way it is, someone else drags out a 5D)

this is what got me to my LC-1, i liked what i saw, i knew it felt right, im sick to death of menu plugging and would sooner have all the fly-by-wire controls on the planet than any more menu items. this to is why im here at leica forum and less in other places, i see my future here

some people call it retro, i think its plain ergonomic and natural, cameras of the late film era where fairly well sorted out ergonomicly, now we are in a position to have the best of both worlds, and i want no less

Riley

[johnastovall]

I don't know what cameras you are using but I press one button on my 5D and ISO control goes to my back control wheel. With a little practice I never have to move the camera from my eye. ISO is during that time is in the veiwfinder.

But frankly, I don't see the need to be changing ISO that much when shooting anyway.

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by Riley

i believe that Kamil sees it the way it is
most cameras are pretty dam far from a 5D or a D200, dSLRs make up about 11% of production, what percentage of those do you think are 5D's ? and yet for mainstream they are the best we have to offer (why is it that when someone questions the way it is, someone else drags out a 5D)

In my case it's because that's the digital camera I use for the vast majority of time. I fuly realise that DSLRs are in the minority, but I don't want to comment on cameras I don't use.

[robsteve]

To put this into a Leica context, the DMR is very well thought out and easy to use. There are separate controls for exposure comp, shutter speed, aperture, mirror lock up, ISO, White bal, first or second curtain flash sync and a host of other things. It is very intuitive to use and you really don't need to be carrying a manual around to know how to do things. I found this was the biggest problem with the Canon SLRs, whether digital or film.

When using a DMR, you never have to go into a menu system to lock up the mirror or set second curtain sync. I think all other digitals have these features (if they have them) in the custom function menu.

[Jean LeBlanc]

Originally Posted by robsteve

you really don't need to be carrying a manual around to know how to do things. I found this was the biggest problem with the Canon SLRs, whether digital or film.

The Canons are awful, to those of us used to the way things used to be done. I suppose for the video game generation, they're probably just the tits. But it took me weeks to get used to the 5D after the F-1. And I can still pick up the F-1 and get perfect exposures without even thinking much about it. I always need to stop and think about the setup on the 5D.

[John Maio]

I'm afraid that we're in for a period of "feature stuffing" that is typical of a too-strong marketing influence on design. As the sensors get better, some nearing the IQ of current lens designs, the marketeers are using "features" to discriminate their product in the marketplace - and that's a whole new argument - just what is the marketplace anyway?

Cell phones are a great example. They take pictures, make movies, download and play movies and TV clips, connect to the internet, etc. etc, ad infinitum. The only thing they still don't do very well is make phone calls, but what marketer wants to stress THAT?

When the Canon 5D came out at $3000, it seemed to be targeted to professional work, but why the "picture styles", the infamous "print" button, and so on? Now, you see people of all persuasions on certain forums bragging that they got one from Dell with a triple-witching coupon and rebate deal for $2100. It seems that the real sport now is how cheaply you can snag one! Never mind actually using it to take and share images.

We see the same debate here on the PanaLeica models. Endless arguments about whether the Panny version is just as good as the Leica-branded version. Very little posting of images on the photo forum, however. After all its much more fun to sit in front of a computer and get into technical debates than actually go out, take some great photos, and actually share them. Just go up a level and see how many are reading this forum vis a vie the Photo Forum.

Oh well - time to get some real work done.

[Riley]

i think most of them are still laughing at the last photo i posted
and personally, i get quite a lot out of the technical side of things
not that im any good at it lol
and i have quite a facination for the technology involved
i dont imagine im alone in that

but i agree with you about 'simpler' cameras
there is something intrigueing about simple cameras that i find attractive


Riley

[jrc]

Leica's neglect of the ISO option is just odd; that's all. Nikon, Canon, even the Epson RD1 make specific efforts to include ISO in the immediate-use category. Leica chose not to. To me, for my uses, it's not a huge deal. It's just...odd.

JC

[robsteve]

Originally Posted by jrc

Leica's neglect of the ISO option is just odd; that's all. Nikon, Canon, even the Epson RD1 make specific efforts to include ISO in the immediate-use category. Leica chose not to. To me, for my uses, it's not a huge deal. It's just...odd.

JC

On the DMR you just push a button and spin a wheel to set the ISO. Not much different than old film cameras where you pushed in the ISO lock while you moved the iso setting.

[lct]

Originally Posted by kamilsukun

...I can point out the controls for the final exposure. These were the aperture and shutter in the pre digital days. In digital photography since ISO is also changeable, ISO setting knob must be placed under the photographers fingers as the previous two. But it is not. It is somewhere in the menus...

It is not true for all digital cameras by far.
The Epson R-D1 is designed exactly like you say and with DSLRs i use (Nikon) i just need to push a button and turn a wheel which is pretty straighforward.

Originally Posted by kamilsukun

...In every new camera I see a slight shift towards a HiFi receiver face design approach. And the orgy of buttons, knobs and switches distract the attention of the photographer off the photograph itself. The silhouette of the new photographer is a person staring at the back of his camera...

All digital cameras (and HiFi receivers ;-) are not like this fortunately.
Look at the Leica M8 for instance. Setting aside ISO controls, it is almost as ergonomic as its analogue predecessors.

[kamilsukun]

Well, I understand that I should not be that pessimistic.

Sincere thanks for the informative comments.

[MitchoIankov]

Well, I think they are all ‘old’ fashioned.

In the digital world the greatest flexibility is that the sensor does not have to fixes.

What I mean is that we will see designs where the sensor movement is used to focus and also for more ‘artistic’ effects (tilt the sensor to get things in focus/out of focus).

The ISO is ‘history’ (pre digital). What the photographer cares about is the speed and the aperture (controls DOF). Assuming ‘digital noise’ does not exist then the ISO setting is irrelevant. You just set F4/250 for the picture you want to take.

Mitcho

[Bill Sievers]

The RD1 was designed by someone very much in tune with what a photographer would want ergnomically. You can adjust ISO and picture resolution without going into the menus. Choosing between BW and color requires going into the menu, however.

The Ricoh GR gives you fast access to everything with the flywheel.

[marknorton]

The Epson is pretty rough ergonomically, IMHO, once you get beyond the dial set. The EV+/- and ISO are difficult to set in the dark, the viewfinder display is poor, the controls for reviewing and zooming are also poor. The reviewing controls on the M8 are the best of any camera I know, but they could have done more to make ISO and EV+/- immediately accessible.

[kamilsukun]

Originally Posted by MitchoIankov

You just set F4/250 for the picture you want to take.
Mitcho

Mitcho,

Then, this is AUTO ISO. Isn't it?

By the way do you think the sensitivity of the sensor will ever be that flexible.? Might be wonderful any way.

And your other predictions might open a totally new universe.

[Bill Sievers]

Originally Posted by marknorton

The Epson is pretty rough ergonomically, IMHO, once you get beyond the dial set. The EV+/- and ISO are difficult to set in the dark, the viewfinder display is poor, the controls for reviewing and zooming are also poor. The reviewing controls on the M8 are the best of any camera I know, but they could have done more to make ISO and EV+/- immediately accessible.

If you use them alot (ISO and EV) you can go by feel. As for reviewing, whats that ;-)

Being able to switch ISO and color/bw without going into the menus is something the Leica people should incorporate into their design.