D2 vs D3 (or a M8)

[mwalker649]

I have been debating upgrading from a D2 to a D3. Can someone out there that has done this tell me if its worth it? Is there a favorite dealer out there that will allow a trade for my D2 either for a D3 or even maybe a M8?

[Riley]

theres a discussion that gets around some of this here

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/dig...hots-here.html

i think going to D3 from D2 is a shorter step than D3 to M8
one of the few things wrong for me with M8 is the 3x2 format, i need 4x3

Riley

[MJLogan]

I have both D2 and D3.

The advantages of D3:
--bigger sensor=bigger files + less noise.
--ISO 400 excellent and 800 not at all bad in a pinch
--Image-stabilization in great kit lens (as good a lens as the D2's superb Summicron, and the IS more than gains back the lost stop)
--Faster RAW write; faster in general
--interchangeable lenses (I love using an old Oly 50mm f/1.4 OM lens as a tiny, ultrafast, bokeh-to-die-for 100mm portrait lens on the D3)
--slightly more comfortable to hold due to subtle hand grip

More or less a draw:
--D3's OVF is smallish and darkish. Live view is a better choice in low light. D2 EVF is actually better in low light

Advantages of D2:
--Silent (no mirror slap)
--Smaller and lighter
--RAW supported by Apple's Aperture (D3 not yet)

Advantages of both D2 and D3
--The image quality exceeds the specs
--The bounce flash rocks!
--They're gorgeous, solidly-built objects

Disadvantage of both D2 and D3
--Neither has particularly robust autofocus

[John Maio]

I never owned a Digilux-2, but had an M8 for a short time last month before I returned it for a refund. I then bought the Digilux-3 and am very happy with it so far, even though I've only had it for a couple of days.

I still have and love my M7, and if the M8 situation gets to the point where I can feel confident in the "fix" and not have to scour the world for IR cutoff filters, etc., I may go back. In the meantime, the D3 will suit me just fine.

[mwalker649]

Is there a dealer out there (web based) that will let me trade in the D2 for a D3? The four thirds lense mount supports oly and what else? Is there electronic advantages over the Panasonic version? Thanks for your help.

Mike

[John Maio]

I got my Digilux-3 from B&H and I believe they take trades. The other outfit is popflash.com. Tony Rose has been spoken highly of on this forum.

But the reality is you will likely get the best financial deal by selling your Digilux-2 yourself and ordering the -3.

You can put Oly (Zuiko) 4:3 lenses on your Digilux-3 and Sigma also has a range of lenses for the 4:3 standard. Its been rumored that Leica will also offer additional lenses in 2007. In addition, I understand that there is a Leica "R" lens adapter available, but I haven't looked into that yet.

[spylaw4]

There is a road map for Leica/Panasonic D lenses Šg‘å‰æ‘œ and the R adapter should be out around Feb07

[dugby]

I own both D2 and L1, and can additionally write, to the above comments

a) L1 is much faster to get a shot, at least 2-3x faster, enough that you don't miss a 'moment'. I have missed many with my D2. This is after 'power-on'

Additionally to power-on and get a shot, on the L1, less than 1 sec, whereas the D2 will take 1 to 2 secs.

b) the L1 raw buffer seem to hold about 6x, before writing slows done. The D2 takes 5 secs to write each RAW.

c) the DOF is much better controlled on L1..... the D2's is far too big.

d) the L1 autofocus is much better if you turn off the "Auto-3-zones" and set it to "center only"......and then its much better than the D2,

e) I taken some really good hand held shots in my D2 at 1/10 sec.
I was extremely surprised that with OIS on L1, that a 1/2 sec hand held was so good.

f) I still don't like the noise of mirror slap. If the L1/D3 could have been made with "continuously setable Live preview" with no mirror movement, ie have light metering and focus done off the sensor (like Olympus OM4) / and Focus via the LCD display then I'd be 100 % pleased with the L1/D3 for no noise environments (in concertos where I often shoot).

g) the L1 is 50% heavier than a D2. I'll let you know about this after my 4 week holiday Jan/Dec

h) External Flash on D2 and M8 uses the Metz 3502-Mod4 standard. D3/L1 uses 3202-Mod5.....so be aware for flash incompatibilty.

Despite being the same brand-type (Digilux N../..Lumix) they are really very different solutions in different eras for Leica... / ...Panasonic.

PS. I'd made the emotional decision that the next camera after my D2 was to be the M8, and I'd skip the D3. But unfortunate circumstances forced me to make another interrim decision whilst Leica sort out the M8.

I've been a shooter for 36 years now, and had for last 10 have not wanted to change lenses ...ie willing to compromise the quality of Primes...for a Vario. I was ready to use an M8 with two lenses, 28/2.0 and 75/2.0 but was dreading the thought of swapping lenses and getting dust on the M8 sensor.

Panasonic, fixed this issue with the ultrasonic sensor cleaner in the D3/L1. Maybe this technology may find it's way into the M9.

One thing you gotta be clear on with the Leica Digilux (and Lumix) family brand. The D1, D2 and D3 are not really anything more than a marketing exercise in "branding" there is no model compatability with the expensive add-ons, ie filters, macro devices, external flashes, and for now lenses.

The only items that were carried over are, the lithium battery (D3 has a very minor amp boost), and remote-control cable.

I think the decision you face based on available IQ technology (which , is- price proportional)
a) the D2 will provide IQ rated at 7/10
b) the D3/L1 will provide IQ rated at 8/10
c) the M8 (without the magenta issue) produces IQ of 9.75/10. I still don't like what I've seen with some of the IR changes to other colours when the IR filter is used.
But as a pure B&W shooter, strangely the M8's IQ is 10/10

[mwalker649]

dugby,
what did you mean?

"Despite being the same brand-type (Digilux N../..Lumix) they are really very different solutions in different eras for Leica... / ...Panasonic"

mike

[MJLogan]

I second the suggestion of selling your D2 on EBay. They routinely go for between $800 and $1,300 US. That's how I got mine, actually.

[Riley]

mike

D3 will accept the lenses from the four thirds system, have a look on the four thirds site at the range of glassware there.

Four Thirds | Products | Lenses

its flash system and 'Live View' come from Olympus, so look at Oly flashes for support

Riley

[Riley]

as to M8 well, its a big commitment finacialy, almost 3x what D3 is here ($)
not that it scares me off unduly but
.....I can have that C200 Benz for almost the same money <g>
and like I said, I really need 4x3, while its 3x2 frame


but when I have the Benz anyway, and M8 is a little more sorted out.....

Riley

[dugby]

Originally Posted by mwalker649

dugby,
what did you mean?

"Despite being the same brand-type (Digilux N../..Lumix) they are really very different solutions in different eras for Leica... / ...Panasonic"

mike

Sorry now I re-read that sentence, it is very vague.

I was trying to say, over the chronology of the life of the following-
a) D1 was a solution for the serious amateur who wanted a lot more out of the usual P&S available in the early 2002(or there abouts) era.

b) D2 was a solution for the semi-pro/pro (some pro's made a living with D2's), who wanted a quiet (no mirror slap) camera with great images.

c) D3 is an attempt to get the into the 4/3 camp, and also attempt to steal SLR consumers across with the great Leica len images, as they upgrade from older dSLRs. I think this market segment is different to those people who bought the D2. This is probably a bigger segment, and may become another cash-cow for Leica like what the C-Lux and D-Lux is doing for Leica revenues. (I didn't want to be in this D3 segment, but an unreliable D2 and an expensive family holiday next month pushed me into a L1 purchase to cover family requirments..... I actually would have liked to have waited with my D2....until if there was ever going to be a D2+)


My references to Panasonic and Lumix just added confusion to my original sentence.
There is no question, images from each Digilux can be identical to those from the Lumix, by setting them accordingly.

I hope this clears up that badly worded sentence, I wrote.

[symmetron]

I was also interested in moving from my D2 to the D3/L1. After handling the LI, I simply didn't appreciate the differences between the the two cameras since I intended to use the short zoom anyway; i.e. don't know if I'd ever use a longer zoom. I am generally satisfied with the D2 IQ and haven't read or seen anything indicating that the D3/L1 14-55mm?? (short zoom) blows away the D2 Vario-Summicron.

For that matter, to anyone interested in a D3/L1, please do not buy it without first handling it. It's different. It's a little large (almost awkward to me), heavy relative to the D2 (lens haevy), and the viewfinder eye relief is poor if you wear glasses (at least for me). To me the D2 is a D3 with a fixed lens. You need to try yourself.

[mwalker649]

I understand what you mean. I think I fall into the D2 camp. I guess I'm in between market segments at this time. I would like better performance than my D2 but not sure that I want to venture into the M8 world at this time. The D3 seems to fall short. I want to stay with Leica but the N D80 is starting to look good.

[johnk]

A quick note about the "R series" adapter. My guess is that it will be much like the Olympus legacy adapter offered by Olympus -- it will allow you to use those lenses in manual/stopped down mode -- nothing is automatic. So it's useful if you are going to use the lens wide open, but those that have used it on the Olympus cameras have had mixed feelings about it (the hassle factor...)

For those that can't wait, visit Adapters: Olympus E-1. Here you can find a host of 4/3 mount adapters to various lenses, including a Leica R adapter.

The reputation that these adapters have is very good.

John

[Riley]

since a few variations of lenses require mirror up
live view might be useful after all

Riley