Well, I sold my M8...

[Jack_Flesher]

First off, it has awesome files -- in fact the best I've ever seen in a single-capture camera apart from the IR leaking.

So what were my issues? I had a few of them.

Lens-mounted IR filters combined with the well above average cost of a complete system that requires that kind of patchwork fix. IMO Leica should do the right thing and fix the sensor's IR cut filter design -- having to use filters on their lenses is a joke and I find this "solution" by Leica kind of insulting. Yet to be fair, I did not notice significant problems when shooting filter-less landscapes under daylight, so I could probably let this slide if given a good reason to -- but it wasn't going to be a landscape camera and for me, the cost was over my threshold of pain for a good reason.

The other issue is really a personal one -- and I know all of you long-time M users are going to scream blasphemy

Simply stated, the M8 was going to be my street camera. And I have grown accustomed to Canon's excellent autofocus and superb metering -- and multi-segment evaluative metering is just a lot better than center-weighted when you are working fast. Plus I can carry two full-frame 5D bodies with a 28 on one and an 85 on another and a 50in the bag and the total weight is about the same as a pair of M8's and 3 M lenses would be. With the Canon's set up the way I like them, I just grab a body, press the AF button under my thumb focusing on what I want in focus, compose and shoot -- and get it all done in about half the time it takes me to complete that with the M.

No the files are not as awesome as the M8's, but they are still very good and I get more keepers. And coupled with the flakey filter solution and cost, the Canons just make more sense for me.

Hope you guys don't banish me from the kingdom.... Cheers,

Jack

[mark1958a]

well put...

[egibaud]

Originally Posted by Jack_Flesher

Simply stated, the M8 was going to be my street camera. And I have grown accustomed to Canon's excellent autofocus and superb metering -- and multi-segment evaluative metering is just a lot better than center-weighted when you are working fast. Plus I can carry two full-frame 5D bodies with a 28 on one and an 85 on another and a 50in the bag and the total weight is about the same as a pair of M8's and 3 M lenses would be. With the Canon's set up the way I like them, I just grab a body, press the AF button under my thumb focusing on what I want in focus, compose and shoot -- and get it all done in about half the time it takes me to complete that with the M.

nice subliminal advert for Canon

[plasticman]

Originally Posted by egibaud

nice subliminal advert for Canon

Does everything have to be a struggle between Leica and other camera-makers?
Jack is entitled to his opinion.

[carstenw]

Jack, I am really sorry to hear that. I don't like the filter option either, but considering the corner sharpness of the M8 vs. 5D and other cameras, I am happy with this compromise. I am also pretty sure that a new firmware and colour profile will minimise the IR problem. I hope you decide for an M8 sometime in the future.

Wrt. the focusing, that is just a question of practice. I miss focus as often with AF as I do with MF, due to moving subjects, recomposing, AF inaccuracy on my 5D, and so on. And your kit size comparison is not right. The 5D kit would weigh about 1kg more. Besides, the Canon 28 and 50 lenses are quite mediocre, whereas the Leica ones are some of the best in the world. Anyway, I am sure you know all this already.

[Jamie Roberts]

Originally Posted by Jack_Flesher

{Snipped}
Plus I can carry two full-frame 5D bodies with a 28 on one and an 85 on another and a 50in the bag and the total weight is about the same as a pair of M8's and 3 M lenses would be.

{snipped}

Hope you guys don't banish me from the kingdom.... Cheers,

Jack

Hey Jack--I don't know what 85 you're thinking of, but if it's the 85 f1.2L you've blown the weight--and focus speed--requirement right there!

All kidding aside, I'm too old to be good with AF--I found I missed way too many shots. But I love my 5d too, and it is light. FWIW, I just got some focus confirmation R-->EOS adapters, and they work. So I hope that 50 in the bag you're carrying is a Summilux R...

Anyway, and FWIW, you're always welcome in my teeny-tiny part of the Leica kingdom, Jack I'm sure you'll end up with one of these someday!

[chuckpjones]

Banish you for what Jack? For liking a different camera better? No way! Each of us does his own type of work, and each selects his tools based upon our needs. We won't see any Sports shooters out on a socker field shooting an M8 either. Just not the right tool for the job. I know you, and know also your extensive use of T/S lenses. Well, there aren't any for the M8. Again, just not the right tool for the job. No Jack, your decision was well researched, and very well thought out, which I commend you for.

As for myself, I am staying put. This M8, even with it's problems, is freaking awsome for the kind of work I do. However, I do agree completely with you that the solution Leica is presenting, from what we have heard, is a bit on the cheezy side to say the least. But we have not heard it directly from the horses mouth yet, so I am not going to be too trigger happy on passing judgement just yet. That may change tomorrow though. Seems to me that an exchange program for the defective product is more in order here, as is a proper fix. The very idea that a defective product this expensive be handled as a warranty repair is truly insulting. Leica needs to step up, issue a product recall, and exchange at their cost for a product that meets the published specifications, the product we all paid our hard earned dollars for. Some half baked scheme of warranty repair back in Germany just isn't going to fly with me, as I can't afford to have that much money tied up in any camera that doesn't earn it's keep. But I am a working professional, so I look at my cameras as my tools of my trade, not as a hobby. I don't shoot, we don't eat. Simple as that. Hard to shoot when my tools are on a slow boat over the big pond heading off into what is sure to be a very large pile of it's brothers, with no idea how long that vacation to the mother land will take. And with the limited availability of M8's, I only have one, so no backup yet. But let's wait until the official word to discuss this more.

[pascal_meheut]

If you can use a SLR for street photography, why getting a RF in the first place ? The SLR offers more precise framing, a huge choice of lenses, access to zooms, better automatic exposure, AF or not and so on. Finally the lenses and the body are less expensive.

For some of us however, a rangefinder like the M8 cannot be replaced because we want something less obtrusive and because we prefer to frame through this kind of viewfinder. And because we like both the easy and precise manual focusing in low light is very and use of hyperfocal on a sunny day.
For these reasons, we are ready to accept filters, returning the body to Solms, paying an expensive body and lenses and even some extra.

Have fun.

[stnami]

...a rangefinder like the M8 cannot be replaced because we want something less obtrusive

somewhat of an old myth, there are more DSLR guys and gals working the streets obtrusivly than ever before

and because we prefer to frame through this kind of viewfinder

sounds fair reason to me

[adan]

BLASPHEMY!!

(Just kidding, Jack - haven't heard from you since years ago on the Photo.net forum).

Actually, although I put up some mildly negative 5D samples elsewhere here today - if they ever come out with a Mark II that supports SD cards like its 1D cousins, it will be high on my list as an SLR add-on to the M8. In the SLR world I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop in almost every line - a smaller digital R, a full-frame Nikon, the 5D with SD cards, etc. The M8 for me in the meantime.

[pascal_meheut]

Originally Posted by stnami

somewhat of an old myth, there are more DSLR guys and gals working the streets obtrusivly than ever before

Matter of taste really. I have the feeling that even when shooting people I know, they feel more comfortable when I'm using a M rather than even a small SLR like the R6.2, not to mention a 5D.
Maybe this is just me and I know other people do not feel that way but my point is that some people have a hard time replacing a rangefinder for these reasons.

[blovitch]

I think alot of this is to do with perceptions....

People see a huge SLR with a chunky lens and immediately form and idea.. When I have used an M camera and an to a certain extent an X-Pan 2 at Weddings, people always seem surprised, even dissapointed, that I am not lugging around a huge black box covered in buttons, dials and knobs. To the non photographer thats what a "Pro" camera should look like.

I think that if you are using a Leica M for street photography you will be seen with it, but the impact is different because of its appearance. It looks less like a "Pro" camera and more like an old hobbyist machine, therefore is less threatening to most people.

I am a little uncomforable with the notion of "stealth" when talking about street photography, maybe in the worlds trouble spots for a journalistic assignment, but for casual picture taking I think perhaps trying to conceal your activities is likely to bring about more attention than if you are a little more open and honest about your intentions.

[pascal_meheut]

Originally Posted by blovitch

I am a little uncomforable with the notion of "stealth" when talking about street photography, maybe in the worlds trouble spots for a journalistic assignment, but for casual picture taking I think perhaps trying to conceal your activities is likely to bring about more attention than if you are a little more open and honest about your intentions.

Yes but as I said, even when shooting my friends and my family, I can take more pictures without bothering them with an M. And the same is true in the street.

[erl]

Originally Posted by blovitch

I think alot of this is to do with perceptions....

People see a huge SLR with a chunky lens and immediately form and idea.. When I have used an M camera and an to a certain extent an X-Pan 2 at Weddings, people always seem surprised, even dissapointed, that I am not lugging around a huge black box covered in buttons, dials and knobs. To the non photographer thats what a "Pro" camera should look like.

I think that if you are using a Leica M for street photography you will be seen with it, but the impact is different because of its appearance. It looks less like a "Pro" camera and more like an old hobbyist machine, therefore is less threatening to most people.

I am a little uncomforable with the notion of "stealth" when talking about street photography, maybe in the worlds trouble spots for a journalistic assignment, but for casual picture taking I think perhaps trying to conceal your activities is likely to bring about more attention than if you are a little more open and honest about your intentions.

Your thoughts are reasonable, but not tested to 'conclusion'. Stealthy approaches to street photography do produce different results from 'open & honest' methods as you describe them. IMHO both are legitimate, but produce decidedly different results.

As to the appearance of the camera, that is insignificant relative to the photographers demeanour. I know that any camera can be used for street photography if the photographer is skilled. Without skill, the camera is useless anyway.

Concern about what people think can easily cloud a photographers judgement. If you have a job to do, do it! If you are shooting street or other self indulgent style, then be considerate of other peoples rights, but their thoughts are their problem. Take them on board and you will compromise your images. Sometimes that can be the right thing, of course. No situation is straight forward.

Che3rs,
Erl

[stnami]

..... life was always easier with a F3 than a small camera.. better to bother,be open and seen than sleath and conceal in the mean streets.. a smack in the face beats a ..........

anyway Jack enjoy

[fotografz]

Hey Jack, good to see ya here, even with bad news ya old Canonphile : -)

While I have the M8 in my possession, I haven't paid a dime toward it yet (my dealer agreed to hold off until Leica sorted out the issues). But, it'll soon be decision time.

Here's my criteria: the camera has to produce files that are different looking than anything else I use ... It does that IMO. It's not a value judgment of file quality, for that I'll use my H2D39 which none of these 35mm sized cameras can ever hope to equal.

So, it's an aesthetic decision. The question is, how much inconvenience will I put up with for that look? Well, since I paid and arm and leg for the inconvenience of scanning film with an Imacon 949 just for that "look", I guess I'll put up with a lot and pay a lot for the privilege.

In addition, I use wide lenses and everything Canon makes below 50mm is sub-standard at best and horrifying at worst. I have tried the Zeiss C/Y and Leica R adapted lenses route ... but that redefines the term "inconvenience".

I also don't quite agree on the size/weight issue. I can place the M8 & M7, a SF-20, 4 filters, 6 lenses from 24/2.8 ASPH to 90/2AA (including the 75/1.4); a spare battery and batteries for the M& and SF20; and 10 rolls of film in a LowPro Omni Traveler. The equivalent Canon gear barely fits into a large roller bag. I've carried 2 Ms for weddings and done the same with the Canon ... my back and shoulder knows the difference after 8 straight hours of none stop wedding photography : -)

What I'm inclined to do is return the camera I have, and place an order for 2 M8s that are factory ready with all the fixes ... giving me 4 IR filters

[Riley]

Originally Posted by Jack_Flesher

No the files are not as awesome as the M8's, but they are still very good and I get more keepers. And coupled with the flakey filter solution and cost, the Canons just make more sense for me.


Jack

i dont see the logic, handling preferences i can accept but
as you say files are not as awesome as M8,
so apparently you dont want the 'flakey filter solution' one assumes because of image quality, but are ready to accept inferior image quality because (among other things) it doesnt have a flakey filter solution

each to his own, and good luck with it


Riley

[erl]

The interesting thing about this forum is that everyone wants something different from the others, but usually works out what it it is and how to get it.

So that explains the continual variation of opinions on any topic.eg.the M8's virtues, or lack thereof!

I've had too much to drink tonight. Just ignore me.

[flatfour]

I can sympathise with you if you are so keen on autofocus, but as my college tutor says autofocus guesses what you want sharp. That's all it does. Oh and it takes a bit of time over it.

[erl]

Originally Posted by flatfour

I can sympathise with you if you are so keen on autofocus, but as my college tutor says autofocus guesses what you want sharp. That's all it does. Oh and it takes a bit of time over it.

Don't believe everything college tutors say. Just think, why are ther 'tutoring' instead of doing.

Sure auto focus (may) guess, but so do you/me when we manually focus. Either way, yes we do want sharp. The test is which works for us. It is different for each situation. As for the time it takes, well that is quite variable in both cases.

Moral: Question the tutor constantly. Only then can you assess the voracity of his/her statements. Same as for polititians really.

Cheers,
Erl