Warning about The Classic Camera shop in London

[WildWood]

Hi all

I had a bad experience with this shop recently and wanted to let people know about it.

My partner needed a Leica M8 and we strolled into the shop, which is in Pied Bull Yard, near the British Museum. We assumed it was an official Leica dealer from all the Leica books and Leica training certificates littered around, but it is not, as we later discovered.

We were sold a new M8 body and on request given the cashback deal that Leica were offering - oddly rather than us pay the full price and claim the cashback using a form and receipt as is usually necessary, they gave us the discount straight away.

We also wanted to know about the Leica passport paperwork but the salesman said that the M8 didn't get the passport. Anyway, slightly confused, we went off with our new camera.

I was concerned about not getting passport (it gives 2 years of insurance against any damage, even accidental, but the camera has to be an official UK import to get it), so I emailed Leica UK.

They said: "I can confirm that Classic Camera is not an authorised dealer for Leica UK" and that our camera was not an official UK import. Instead it was a 2007 model sold to a dealer in Malta (they checked the serial number).

We complained to the owner of Classic Camera and asked for a refund, but he would not accept that his salesman or his business model was in the wrong in any way. He refused to issue a refund.

The camera seems fine and we do the one-year EU warranty, and we did get a discount, so things could be worse. But they should have been better! We did not get the passport (taking out insurance for two years will be at least £100) and we were treated in a very underhand way.

The shop may deny these facts, but whether you believe me about the sales tactics or not, the fact is they are not a Leica dealer and Leica does not trade with them so they cannot sell official UK imports. If you buy a new Leica there, you don't know where it came from and you will not get the passport either.

Regards

WW

[andybarton]

Welcome to the forum WW

Unfortunately, there are several threads here about CC, most of them less than complimentary

enjoy your new camera!

[WildWood]

Thanks, Andy

I read some of the forum comments about the shop, but they were largely general points about the staff attitude. I felt I had a serious concern to warn people about.

Anyway I look forward to more positive interaction with the forum in the future...

WW

[andybarton]

They lost their authorised dealer status ages ago. They just don't like to admit it...

[BigSplash]

Originally Posted by andybarton

They lost their authorised dealer status ages ago. They just don't like to admit it...

I was also told by CC that I would get the £500 cash back on the spot, and given the impression that they were a UK dealer until I started digging. They told me:
1 Their cameras are bought via a German agent and that they enjoy a Solms backed warranty.
2 They did not make clear that the UK passport warranty was NOT applicable until I asked specifically.
3 I understand from Leica UK that they actually obtain cameras from Denmark (they checked the serial No. on one unit that was sold) and you say that your camera came from Malta.
4 I have found the sales people as aloof and arrogant until they smell a sale in the air, and personal dress code can influence the way you are treated ...so wear a suit!

In CC I would say that I am impressed by the way they have laid out their shop that reflects the Leica image, and is similar to the Paris Leica dedicated shop. I would like to see the UK approved Leica dealer shops invest in a similar decor....perhaps supported by the factory in terms of shop design.

RG Lewis about 200 metres from CC is a superb shop in terms of knowledge about Leica, commitment to the brand, and large stock of Leica product (new and old). It would be nice see a move towards a shop decor that matches Leica's new image in Mayfair (I guess?) and Paris, Tokyo, Berlin etc.

[farnz]

WW,

Very sorry to hear that TCC has treated you so poorly but I can't say that I'm surprised because I had a problem with my deposit when I purchased my M8 in 2007.

If TCC has offered the M8 to you as new but it was initially sold to the dealer in Malta (as officially confirmed by Leica), who presumably sold it to TCC then it must be second-hand, so the vendor has misrepresented the goods.

You are likely to have some rights under one or more of:
The Sale of Goods Act 1979,
The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982,
The Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994,
The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002,
which require by law that wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means among other things that they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality.

If TCC has described the M8 to you as new then it seems to me that it has broken the law.

Put to TCC in a straightforward way, this might carry enough weight to convince TCC to refund your money rather than face the potentially costly and embarrassing prospect of a lawsuit (whether or not you would intend to carry through with it).

Pete.

[rob_x2004]

What I dont understand, is if someone offers you something, you dont have to buy it.
If you chose to buy a product from someone surley because you save a dollar that is fair enough too.
WRT to passport warranty, or lack of, how does Leica justify a tiered system?
When the camera is sold out of Leica, theyve been payed for it. Is someone that is not receiveing passport subsidising those that have passport? Does Leica have different sale prices that reflect warranty, for their retailers?
I can understand how a dealer might offer additional warranty, presumably seeing benefit for the additional risk.
I can see how the whole thing turns into a bit of a jungle, but who creates the situation in the first place?

[andybarton]

The passport warranty is only available through authorised Leica dealers. It's part of an incentive to go to authorised dealers instead of buying from people who source their product through the grey market from god knows where.

[rob_x2004]

So Leica charges more for them?
If Leicas are being stolen or sold off the back of trucks shouldnt Leica be taking it up with the authorities?
Do I get passport in Aus? I didnt think I got it out here and I certainly dont own a Leica that came through unofficial Leica channels?

[andybarton]

I don't know what Leica Oz do, but this is the situation in the UK.

[stunsworth]

The passport varies from region to region. From memory the M8 doesn't have passport warranty in the US, but does in Europe for example.

[earleygallery]

Pity you didn't check here first, the Classic Camera isn't the most popular shop and they lost their Leica franchise a couple of years ago. There is also a list of authorised dealers available on the Leica website.

But you still have your camera and discount - and didn't have to wait for cashback - so not all bad news. Hopefully you wont find yourself in the position of wanting to make a passport claim and then it wont matter anyway.

[xjr]

The Leica passport is unique.
These cameras if they go wrong they tend to do so within a year and therefore are covered by the normal 1 year warranty so I would not worry about this. However if you were to drop and damaged the camera or the camera is damaged from whatever reason the warranty will cover all repairs and in extremes a replacement!
It is also a great incentive to the buyer if you were to sell it within the five years period the warranty lasts.
I believe that the sale of the camera was done under false facts and you will find that the law is on your side should you choose this road. They should have brought this to your attention i.e. the camera is an unofficial import.
The only cameras not covered in this way are the special edition ones etc.
Leica UK have a list of authorised dealers on their webside.

[WildWood]

Originally Posted by farnz

WW,

If TCC has offered the M8 to you as new but it was initially sold to the dealer in Malta (as officially confirmed by Leica), who presumably sold it to TCC then it must be second-hand, so the vendor has misrepresented the goods.

Hi Farnz and everyone else

Thanks for the replies.

I registered the camera on the Leica site and it had not been previously registered so I don't think it was secondhand. I think it was just ageing new stock that had been passed from one dealer to another. Maybe they buy bankrupt stock - but that's speculation.

The most significant drawback with our purchase was losing the passport, which means we'll have to pay for our own insurance.

The sales methods (I didn't elaborate on some of the things they said while selling us the camera as it is our word against theirs and didn't want legal action!) were more in keeping with a used car dealership than a top spec camera shop, but they can be put down to a lesson learned...

However, I wanted everyone to know that they are not an official dealer and are still selling new cameras that could be a disappointment to others.

Regards

WW

[xjr]

The camera should have been sold to you at a lower price than the official import if the passport was not applicable.

[stnami]

WW....so you where chuffed with the good deal and now you whinge ...... wheeling and deaing that's the way it runs ...........who outsmarts who.......

[honcho]

Interesting opening post.

I went into that shop a couple of years ago and found the member of staff I spoke to quite chatty and helpful even though I didn't buy anything. After reading the above, I'm glad I didn't! Without the passports, I'd have walked anyway.

There may be nothing wrong legally in the way they operate, but it's sensible to play safe and only buy Leica equipment from an official Leica dealer.

[aesop]

Originally Posted by farnz

WW,

...If TCC has offered the M8 to you as new but it was initially sold to the dealer in Malta (as officially confirmed by Leica), who presumably sold it to TCC then it must be second-hand, so the vendor has misrepresented the goods.

You are likely to have some rights under one or more of:
The Sale of Goods Act 1979,
The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982,
The Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994,
The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002,
which require by law that wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means among other things that they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality.

If TCC has described the M8 to you as new then it seems to me that it has broken the law.

...I'm struggling here, farnz - are you suggesting that if new stock from one dealer is transferred to another in the form of a sale, then it is classified as "second-hand" under English law?

Further, re: misrepresentation, the OP advises that "We also wanted to know about the Leica passport paperwork but the salesman said that the M8 didn't get the passport. Anyway, slightly confused, we went off with our new camera."

When the camera was sold it was "fit for purpose". The fact that it did not come with the Leica Passport does not affect the state of the camera, particularly as the buyer was apprised of the situation vis-a-vis the Passport.

CC clearly have a lot to work on, and I will not be spending my hard-earned shekels there, unless I had absolutely no option. On this occasion however, I am disinclined to agree that they have misrepresented.

WW, are you able to share the specific grounds upon which the refund request was declined?

[farnz]

Originally Posted by aesop

...I'm struggling here, farnz - are you suggesting that if new stock from one dealer is transferred to another in the form of a sale, then it is classified as "second-hand" under English law? ...

Aesop,

I'm not a lawyer but it appears to me that if title in the goods had already passed from one party to another, in this instance from the Maltese dealer to TCC, then technically the goods are second-hand. Perhaps the law sees it another way. I agree that there's no question of fitness for purpose; the statement was included for completeness.

Pete.

[stunsworth]

Pete, things like that happen often. A dealer won't have an item in stock and looks for another dealer who does and has the item shipped to him for sale. I don't see items moving between importers an/or dealers as making an item second hand. Once it's been sold as retail and used by the purchaser that's another thing.

As far as CC goes, if they tried to give the impression that no M8 in the UK comes with a passport warranty, then that's obviously wrong. However I'd guess they phrased their response ambiguously enough to _imply_ that was the case without actually saying so directly.