Future of the R system

[telyt]

If the R10 doesn't have a viewfinder as good as the SL's I'll probably hang up the Telyts and retire from photography. Until electronic focus confirmation can give meaningful feedback over the entire viewscreen as quickly and effortlessly as the SL can it's just another kludge.

[john_f]

Originally Posted by telyt

The Nikon flange-to-capture plane distance is .5mm shorter than Leica-R. That's not enough space to fit an adapter.

Thomas, Doug,

Thank you for reminding us about the shorter Nikon flange-to-capture plane distance. What I had in mind was more along the lines of a few modified Leica R lenses with a Nikon F lens mount, which could then be used on any Nikon D-SLR camera. Because of the shorter distance, telephoto lenses would be a more appropriate choice. I believe the APO-Summicron-R 90mm Asph and the APO-Elmarit-R 180mm would be two good choices. And if physically possible, I would also suggest the Vario-Elmarit-R 28-90mm Asph. As I mentioned in a previous post, these unique (dare I say "limited edition") Leica lenses would act as "showcase" pieces to Nikon DSLR users, the reasoning being that Leica needs to bring in NEW customers into the brand.

The problem is, as many people have rightly pointed out, and I thank Rob above for his excellent post, that the Leica R camera will need to undergo considerable re-design if it is to attract new, outside (read "non-Leica") customers. IMHO, even before considering issues of AF vs MF, there are several aspects of the R8/R9's ergonomics that require significant improvements.

Let's start with the R8/R9's protection against water. At this price level, a modern camera that does not include environmental seals cannot be taken seriously. The next Leica R10 SLR camera MUST use rubber environmental seals on all possible points of entry for water, dust, etc... That includes all dials, buttons, doors (SDHC memory card door, USB/FireWire communication port door, etc..) and of course, the LCD screen. BTW, I would like the R10 to be able to use two (2) SDHC cards, not just one.

Have a look at this review of the EOS 1Ds MkII about its environmental seals:
Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II Review: 5. Body & Design: Digital Photography Review

While lower than the R8, the weight of the R9 with DMR or motor-drive is still too high, especially when compared to its competitors. The next R10 should have an integrated (i.e. built-in) motor drive, just like all other modern 35mm cameras (digital or not). While the R10 would not need to have a speed of 8 frames/sec, its motor and mirror mechanism should be able to reach such a speed (or something close to it) with an additional power-pack. In other words, give the user the freedom to choose: 5 fps out of the box, 8 fps with an accessory power booster. Leica should also look into ways to lower the shutter noise and vibration (or at the very least offer some sort of "quiet mode" at the lower motor speeds).

I would also strongly recommend re-designing the R9's hand-grip. While its shape might be a close match to the user's right hand, it would appear its design did not take into consideration the high weight of the R9 and DMR or motor-drive. That was also the opinion of the reviewers at CDI (Chasseur d'Images) magazine, who were never known to be "anti-Leica". Quite the contrary (See CDI Sommaire, issue # 250, Feb 2003).

On the subject of that CDI review of the Leica R9, they also had very bad comments about the R9's focusing screen, which they found to considerably lag behind its competitors. They found the screen way too grainy (reminded them of the viewfinder of the R6 and R7). FWIW, the CDI article suggested that Leica adopt Minolta's Spherical Acute-Matte focusing screen (which they considered as their "reference" at the time ...). Not having a lot of experience with Minolta cameras, I cannot comment on this but I would suggest to Leica that they contact Sony to get a sample of this screen. It can't hurt to give it a try. CDI also noted that the image in the viewfinder had a slight "greenish" tint - due to the R9's older technology semi-transparent mirror (70% to the viewfinder, 30% to the meter cells). All in all, when you consider that one of the biggest reasons for buying a Leica SLR are its lenses, the camera's viewfinder and focusing screen should be of the highest quality. A Leica camera deserves nothing less.

The R7 was introduced back in 1992. IMHO, I think Leica should seriously re-consider the R9's viewfinder and focusing screen. A Leica SLR camera deserves the best viewfinder. On a personal note, I would also like to see an HP viewfinder with 0,9x magnification and 100% image coverage (not the current 93%).

Two last points:
1) The position of the shutter release. I agree with Rob. It needs to be re-positioned for greater comfort (especially with a built-in motor and new handgrip).
2) The depth of field preview lever is not very easy to use. It should be redesigned.

There are many other aspects of a future R10 that could be explored but I will limit myself to the suggestions I made in this post for the moment. I do think that the next R10 should be a digital only camera (no DMR), with some sort of intelligent "focus verification" (or focus confirmation) and that it should use a "full-frame" 24x36mm sensor. On the subject of the square format sensor, I'm sorry but I believe going with such a format would imply significant (and costly) changes to the camera's lens mount, not to mention its lenses. I want to be able to use all of my current R lenses on the next R10.

I encourage all forum members to "chip in" and contribute their own opinions, suggestions, criticism, etc ... Let's make the next R10 a camera we can all like and be proud of using - and buying!

Thank you,

John F.

[albertwang]

And what is the cost of such a matte screen? It should be reasonable I suppose. the R10 really needs one. I'm not saying that the Leica R8/R9 is all that bad but a brighter screen would need to be in the works sometime!

[john_r_smith]

Albert

Hasselblad have used a Minolta Acute-Matte focus screen on their V-series cameras for many years now, and it is very good indeed. Retail they are about £150 GBP, but of course this is a big 6x6cm screen. I would expect a 35mm screen to be considerably less expensive.

John

[ruiespanhol]

Originally Posted by john_f

Thomas, Doug,

Thank you for reminding us about the shorter Nikon flange-to-capture plane distance. What I had in mind was more along the lines of a few modified Leica R lenses with a Nikon F lens mount, which could then be used on any Nikon D-SLR camera. Because of the shorter distance, telephoto lenses would be a more appropriate choice. I believe the APO-Summicron-R 90mm Asph and the APO-Elmarit-R 180mm would be two good choices. And if physically possible, I would also suggest the Vario-Elmarit-R 28-90mm Asph. As I mentioned in a previous post, these unique (dare I say "limited edition") Leica lenses would act as "showcase" pieces to Nikon DSLR users, the reasoning being that Leica needs to bring in NEW customers into the brand.

The problem is, as many people have rightly pointed out, and I thank Rob above for his excellent post, that the Leica R camera will need to undergo considerable re-design if it is to attract new, outside (read "non-Leica") customers. IMHO, even before considering issues of AF vs MF, there are several aspects of the R8/R9's ergonomics that require significant improvements.

Let's start with the R8/R9's protection against water. At this price level, a modern camera that does not include environmental seals cannot be taken seriously. The next Leica R10 SLR camera MUST use rubber environmental seals on all possible points of entry for water, dust, etc... That includes all dials, buttons, doors (SDHC memory card door, USB/FireWire communication port door, etc..) and of course, the LCD screen. BTW, I would like the R10 to be able to use two (2) SDHC cards, not just one.

Have a look at this review of the EOS 1Ds MkII about its environmental seals:
Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II Review: 5. Body & Design: Digital Photography Review

While lower than the R8, the weight of the R9 with DMR or motor-drive is still too high, especially when compared to its competitors. The next R10 should have an integrated (i.e. built-in) motor drive, just like all other modern 35mm cameras (digital or not). While the R10 would not need to have a speed of 8 frames/sec, its motor and mirror mechanism should be able to reach such a speed (or something close to it) with an additional power-pack. In other words, give the user the freedom to choose: 5 fps out of the box, 8 fps with an accessory power booster. Leica should also look into ways to lower the shutter noise and vibration (or at the very least offer some sort of "quiet mode" at the lower motor speeds).

I would also strongly recommend re-designing the R9's hand-grip. While its shape might be a close match to the user's right hand, it would appear its design did not take into consideration the high weight of the R9 and DMR or motor-drive. That was also the opinion of the reviewers at CDI (Chasseur d'Images) magazine, who were never known to be "anti-Leica". Quite the contrary (See CDI Sommaire, issue # 250, Feb 2003).

On the subject of that CDI review of the Leica R9, they also had very bad comments about the R9's focusing screen, which they found to considerably lag behind its competitors. They found the screen way too grainy (reminded them of the viewfinder of the R6 and R7). FWIW, the CDI article suggested that Leica adopt Minolta's Spherical Acute-Matte focusing screen (which they considered as their "reference" at the time ...). Not having a lot of experience with Minolta cameras, I cannot comment on this but I would suggest to Leica that they contact Sony to get a sample of this screen. It can't hurt to give it a try. CDI also noted that the image in the viewfinder had a slight "greenish" tint - due to the R9's older technology semi-transparent mirror (70% to the viewfinder, 30% to the meter cells). All in all, when you consider that one of the biggest reasons for buying a Leica SLR are its lenses, the camera's viewfinder and focusing screen should be of the highest quality. A Leica camera deserves nothing less.

The R7 was introduced back in 1992. IMHO, I think Leica should seriously re-consider the R9's viewfinder and focusing screen. A Leica SLR camera deserves the best viewfinder. On a personal note, I would also like to see an HP viewfinder with 0,9x magnification and 100% image coverage (not the current 93%).

Two last points:
1) The position of the shutter release. I agree with Rob. It needs to be re-positioned for greater comfort (especially with a built-in motor and new handgrip).
2) The depth of field preview lever is not very easy to use. It should be redesigned.

There are many other aspects of a future R10 that could be explored but I will limit myself to the suggestions I made in this post for the moment. I do think that the next R10 should be a digital only camera (no DMR), with some sort of intelligent "focus verification" (or focus confirmation) and that it should use a "full-frame" 24x36mm sensor. On the subject of the square format sensor, I'm sorry but I believe going with such a format would imply significant (and costly) changes to the camera's lens mount, not to mention its lenses. I want to be able to use all of my current R lenses on the next R10.

I encourage all forum members to "chip in" and contribute their own opinions, suggestions, criticism, etc ... Let's make the next R10 a camera we can all like and be proud of using - and buying!

Thank you,

John F.

In my opinion the viewfinder of R8/9 is the best of any SLR.
They need to improve in others points but not on viewfinder.

Best,

Rui

[albertwang]

Originally Posted by john_r_smith

Albert

Hasselblad have used a Minolta Acute-Matte focus screen on their V-series cameras for many years now, and it is very good indeed. Retail they are about £150 GBP, but of course this is a big 6x6cm screen. I would expect a 35mm screen to be considerably less expensive.

John

Sounds good. I really like my R8 and still prefer it on many occasions.

[john_f]

FYI,

For those still interested in the future of the R system, a very similar thread about a potential "Leica R10" was recently started in the Digital Forum: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/dig...any-ideas.html

Please feel free to add any suggestions, comments you may wish as Leica Camera is very much interested in our opinions - and they do read our posts! ...

Cheers,

John F.

[Angora]

Would prefer the R10 to be just as my R6.2. Every buttons (particularly the DOF lever) are right under my fingers so I can use it without having to leave the viewfinder : all fine.

That implies : compactness (über alles), 24×36 sensor (good @ 400 ISO please !), speed dial, reliability (metal body).
No AF (of course), not even focus assistance (if implemented, it should be possible to disable it).
Dust removal system, 100% viewfinder and total « mechanical camera use » capability (closable OLED/SED screen, ISO button, frame + battery counter as on the M8) would be greatly appreciated.

Problem : how to justify the « downgrade » to a compact body, after the latest R8/9 lines ? (I'm pointing out the volume question, not the ergonomics one)


I agree with john_f 's idea of designing one or two lenses in EF or F mount. Why not the 180-Apo and the 19 (Leica's wide angles seem to be praised by Canon users), in limited series of... let's say 5000 units each ?
A way to appeal the other consumers and tell them something like : « hey, you like it ? So switch to R-system, we've plenty of other gorgeous lenses ! » (90AA, etc.).

But here again, how to justify it ?
People will immediatly point out that it's a marketing trick.


P.-S. : I'm 22 and chose Leica precisely because of its « old school » spirit.
There's a niche for the brand, as the majority of makers now produce AF-plastic-fully-electronical-bling-bling cameras.
Medium is moving and you at Solms have to follow the trend : switch from film to digital. However this requirement doesn't imply that you must also change your spirit.
Keep it in mind !

[Angora]

Oh, and fast-response turn on. (sorry, can't edit my post anymore...)

[dhsimmonds]

Originally Posted by albertwang

And what is the cost of such a matte screen? It should be reasonable I suppose. the R10 really needs one. I'm not saying that the Leica R8/R9 is all that bad but a brighter screen would need to be in the works sometime!

The viewfinder screens for R8/9 are faily easily changed and Leica offer alternatives for the DMR. I have changed to a Leica uniform ground glass screen with grid divisions Part No. 14395. This screen is particularly good for telephoto work but can be used throughout the lens focal length range. The image just "shouts" at you when the subject wanted is in focus and my old eyes are not as good as they used to be! I have never felt the need for a magnifier for this camera.

As an early R8 convert, my move from N F3HP was a delight. I moved from a good slr to a great one. But in the process I moved from great glass to extraordinary glass!

I was stunned at the price and limitations of the DMR, and still have some great film in the freezer...but am not moved to use it. Some of the very best lenses I have ever seen now collect age, if not dust while I wait on Leica to develop the next R. I get them out, roll their focus collars and put them away, waiting.

My hopes are high for a truly well thought out, and problem-free next-gen R body. I would like for it to have a full sized sensor, and it need not possess the capacity for making film photographs. While I loved the various different emulsions, it is time to move on, and I will be very disappointed if Leica forces the capacity and the expense of dual purposing the new R body for film use.

Full compatibility with all R lenses, and focus confirmation with ROM lenses is important, but size and ergonomics are very important, too. Leica had better get in a hurry-millions of new photography focused buyers are coming into the market who've never marvelled at Leica glass, and the R line. If the new R is not compelling enough for demand to reach beyond old R glass owners, growth and R user market share will continue to elude them, and leave me learning the features of my new D80, wondering if I will have to give my R glass away...