Future of the R system

[gdb]

Me too! I am expecting it, and buying the lenses first...

Gérard

[imported_digilux]

You can be sure that Leica people are reading your messages very thouroughly, Andreas Kaufmann

[leicar7]

Mr. Kaufmann,

If you are the same gentleman who graced the LHSA dinner recently in Wetzlar with a very informative address, then it is our privilege to be with you here.

Thank you.

Tom Campbell

[robert_parker]

There's also talk of an adapter being made to fit R lenses to the Digilux 3 camera.

In a way, I'm not surprised that they're taking their time over producing another 28mm prime lens as the 21-35mm ASPH zoom is pretty good at that focal length.

[rsolomon]

The adpater you mention is currently listed on the datasheet for digilux 3

[ruiespanhol]

I use the R system since my 19 years old when I start to use my phater sencond hands R3.
Now I still use the R3 but only in some ocasions because my most use body now is the R8.
Im my opinion the next generation of R cameras cam be made whit full frame sensor whit 16MP or more and focus comfirm. cam be very usefull too.
I not want AF if I want one body whit that I buy one Nikon or Canon but is very important for Leica to catch new users for the R system so focus confirmation is important for that pourpose.The lenses nead some updates because the actual range is not completed they nead some new prime lemses like new 28mm ,135mm and one new 50mm/f2 Asph is wellcome too.The 135mm is no longer in Leica cataloge at some time since 135mm/f2.8 is gone no more 135mm avaliable.The summicron 50mm is from the mid´s 70 is still one good lenses but one update whit Asph. lenses elements cam me made for keep this lenses actual and give even better perfomance ,but keep the actual size and price(not one easy task I agree) is important.In zoom range I love the actual 21-35 and 28-90 but the last one is so expensive that I like to mix one to my R gear but is completed out of my budget and I think of most other leica shooters.So one 28-90 more affordable is VERY wellcome and one new zoom for repalce the 80-200 is necessary since the 28-90 is on the market is more usefull one 90-280 they reaplace the actual 70-180 and at the same time the 105-280.
O.k the 70-180 is one great lenses and make one 90-280 cam be not tech. possible but is my opinion.
I would like to see one zoom like the actual 35-70 the entry price level in Leica lenses whit one more F stop like f2.8.
Just my to cents.

Best,

[adi sudarsono]

Originally Posted by mgcd

John - Was that at CAMTEC? Was it Keith or the local Rep? I still haven't seen the M8 darn! I would be waiting a long time, if I were to expect it to show up in Indonesia...

Cheers,

Try jpckemang, phone no. 0217180487 or Rudy (the owner) at 08129999909. Of course you won't get it on the same week (or month for the M8 case) and it will be imported (no official Leica outlet for thousands of miles) but the service is the best. This is not an ad, just to incourage shops that sell Leicas

[zapp]

With some thinking in mind, Leica is easy to figure out. Concentrate resources on one thing at a time. Right now it is M8 time. The M8 at the same time shows that you can fit a serious digital Leica in an M body - so, we should expect the same can be done for the R mount (meaning next photokina). Before that we will hopefully see a couple new R lenses. There are several other reasons why Leica sells more wide-angle zooms than primes. In the range from 24-35 primes there was no news for 8 years. People already have the lens they want, and if we exclude the 28/2.8 they may have the lens they want for 20 to 30 years. The good news is, that the R10 should fit in the R9 body. It might take 2 more years (counting) but it will take other companies even longer to present a lens line-up that is capable for digital photography. I hope, we will see a couple new wide angle lenses soon - getting ready for a digital R in one piece.
Many thanks to Chris for mentioning that the R system like all 35 mm cameras are not bound to any sensor or film format by default. Any format fitting the image circle of your lens will work. A full frame 4:3 ratio full area sensor would be interesting.

[martinb]

Originally Posted by john_f

Finally, I asked about the Sinar deal made between Leica Camera and Jenoptik (the owner of Sinar AG). The deal was announced just prior to Photokina (Sept 25). Strangely, the Sinar booth at Photokina had a big sign that read "Sinar AG - A Jenoptik Company". The Leica rep was somewhat puzzled as to the strategy behind Leica Camera's purchase of Sinar. Both the MF and LF markets are getting smaller and smaller and pros used to MF are indeed moving toward high-res "35mm format" D-SLR cameras. About Sinar's expertise in digital, I am not sure where it really lies. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the design of their digital backs often involved other outside firms, including Jenoptik and Kodak (sensors). Perhaps other members could provide info on this.

That's not true. It's actually the other way around. As the prices go down many photographers will want to use MF and LF again. And many are taking this route or want to do so. Sure, many will want to stay with 35mm but for ultimate image quality MF or LF is still the answer no mather how good 35mm sensors or lenses that will be made.

[harrisfoto]

To add another variable to the discussion, you can mount the Hasselblad C lenses on the R.

[rob_x2004]

Originally Posted by zapp

The good news is, that the R10 should fit in the R9 body.

If you can find one single good reason to do this....

[john_f]

Martin,

Thank you for your insight in the LF and MF markets. If Leica Camera wanted to get into the LF business, Sinar was a very smart decision indeed - a very active and innovative player in the LF (and MF) market.


Thomas,
Good to hear from you !


Herr Kaufmann,

Welcome to the Leica Camera User forum. May I ask you a question: are you Andreas Kaufmann of ACM Projektentwicklung / Socrates, and the new Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Leica Camera AG?

Thank you,

John F.

[k_g_wolf]

>> John F


I think it is the >>manager<< of the CS in Solms.

They should have had many more >>Kaufmanns<< at LEICA in the past. He is a very engaged and customer orientated gentleman. A joy to deal with, when at the Customer Service ...


Best

[Moritz]

Karl Georg,

Es handelt hier sich nicht um Herrn Kaufmann vom CS, sondern um Herrn Dr. Andreas Kaufmann aus Salzburg, Leicas neuem Aufsichtsratsvorsitzenden und Mehrheitsaktionär.

English: This is not Mister Kaufmann from the Customer Service.

Gruss Moritz

[john_f]

Originally Posted by moritz_nienburg

Karl Georg,

Es handelt hier sich nicht um Herrn Kaufmann vom CS, sondern um Herrn Dr. Andreas Kaufmann aus Salzburg, Leicas neuem Aufsichtsratsvorsitzenden und Mehrheitsaktionär.

Moritz,
Thank you for the info !


Sehr geehrter Herr Dr. Kaufmann,

Speaking for myself, as a long time (over 30 years) user and enthusiast of Leitz/Leica, I am honored to have you as both a member of the Leica Camera User Forum and as Leica Camera AG's new Chairman and majority shareholder. I am very confident that you will take the right decisions to further develop and strengthen Leica.

Please, do feel free to join in and participate in our many discussions on this forum as often as you wish. You will always be welcome here! Thank you.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

John F.
Canada

[pelikan1931]

why not giving up making body and instead concentrating making lens? if zeiss can team up with cosina to make lens for Nikon mount, perhaps Leica can too. The installed base for Nikon camera is certainly huge enough. perhaps time for forget about pride and be realistic.

[john_f]

Hello Pelikan,

Welcome to the Leica Forum - Willkommen! If Leica were to stop making SLR cameras and concentrate on making only R lenses with Nikon F lens mounts (as in the case of the "Zeiss" Cosina ZF lenses), IMHO, it would be a tragic error and a major loss for all Leica R users. It would mean that these new "Leica" lenses could no longer be used on our Leica SLR cameras. No, I would not recommend such a strategy.

However! .... About two weeks before the start of this new forum, I went to a Nikon Demo day at a local photo store (I like to keep track of the competition ;-). There were at least six to eight reps from Nikon along with a senior manager from Nikon Canada. I got to try out the D2X (very good ergonomics, excellent AF, but not so great viewfinder..). After some small talk with the senior manager (I have known him for more than 20 years), I asked him about the new Zeiss ZF lenses with Nikon F (AIS) lens mount. "Doesn't it bother you that a company like Zeiss is coming out with lenses in Nikon F lens mount?" I asked him. His answer was direct: "There was a lawsuit many years ago between Nikon and Sigma, and the judge ruled the lens mount on the camera side is protected, but not the lens mount on the lens side. So if Zeiss wants to make and sell lenses with the Nikon F mount, we don't mind at all". I was so surprised by the answer that I decided to ask him a more specific question: "And what if another company like, say, Leica were to make lenses in Nikon F lens mount?". "It would not bother us one bit", he answered back. So much for the often-suspected legal argument against making Leica lenses in Nikon lens mount.

Curious, I pressed on: "Would you know why Zeiss decided to make those ZF lenses in Nikon lens mount?". The answer was even more surprising. According to him, the creation of the ZF lenses has to do with the movie industry in Hollywood. There is apparently a new trend in Hollywood of using still-picture cameras to create a different kind of "look" to the movies. According to him, the first such use was for the movie "The Matrix" (the first version). The is a scene shot on a rooftop where you see the main character moving in slow motion with bullets flying all around him. The scene was apparently shot with over a dozen synchronized Nikon D1X DSLR cameras on tripods (apparently, there was even a DVD produced that shows the technique). However, the technical staff for the movie apparently noticed that the image quality produced by the D1X+Nikon lenses (AF?) did not match that of the images shot with their film cine-cameras+Zeiss Prime lenses. Specifically, the problems mostly had to do with colors and exposure (and the fact that there was too much quality variation from Nikon lens sample to sample). As time went by, pressure started building on Zeiss (the traditional supplier of cine lenses in the movie industry) to come up with a series of lenses that could be used on Nikon DSLR cameras, but with optical and mechanical characteristics similar to what the movie industry was used to with high-end Zeiss cine lenses (Zeiss Prime and Ultra-Prime lenses).

And that, according to my good friend, is why Zeiss decided to come out with ZF lenses for the Nikon F lens mount. As mentioned by Zeiss since the introduction of their ZM and ZF lenses, the design of these new lenses had been "inspired" by the Zeiss Prime and Ultra-Prime cine lenses. It was all there in black and white in the Zeiss Camera Lens Newsletter Zeiss Camera Lens Newsletter. While these ZF lenses were designed to be used on all Nikon cameras (film or digital), they were primarily intended to be used on (smaller than FF) digital D1X (and now D2X) DLSR cameras. And as requested by the movie industry, ZF lenses are guaranteed to have matching colours and very accurate diaphragm (set to 1/3 values). And since Zeiss cine lenses are the movie industry standard, it’s one less supplier to worry about for movie producers. BTW, according to a previous Leica forum member who worked in this business, Leica M and R lenses are also used in the movie industry on cine cameras (Arriflex, Panavision, etc..) but are highly modified (focusing mount, lens mount, diaphragm, etc..). Needless to say, these people have big budgets !

To go back to your original question (and to close this really too long post), IMHO, I think that Leica Camera AG should seriously consider making a few of their R lenses available in Nikon F (AIS) lens mount (I would suggest the APO-Summicron-R 90mm Asph, the Vario-Elmarit-R 28-90mm Asph, the APO-Elmarit-R 180mm, and maybe a new 24mm or 28mm R lens). By giving Nikon DLSR camera users a unique opportunity to experience what “Leica Quality” really stands for, by giving them a taste of what they might get with a full system Leica-R camera and lenses, Leica could bring in new customers. And by the way, Leica really does need new customers (hint: we old timers are not getting any younger ;-).

Cheers,

John F.

P.S. I am a realist, and I do think there is a future for the Leica R system. A product that is very different from the Nikons and Canons of the world - a completely different market.

[pierovitch]

Why not do both there seems to be no philosophical problem producing lenses for the 4/3 system. The ultimate in optical performance has always been a driving force for Leica. an interesting combination would be a Fuji S5 with Leica optics. (no "its not real pixels" replies please)

Cheers Pierre

[john_f]

Originally Posted by pierovitch

Why not do both there seems to be no philosophical problem producing lenses for the 4/3 system. The ultimate in optical performance has always been a driving force for Leica. an interesting combination would be a Fuji S5 with Leica optics. (no "its not real pixels" replies please)

Cheers Pierre

Because, IMHO, to produce all Leica-R lenses in Nikon F lens mount would in effect "cannibalize" (for lack of a better word..) the existing Leica R camera system. What you want to do is lure new prospective buyers to the Leica system (M, R, D, V, etc..).

About producing Leica lenses for the 4/3 system, I think that Leica Camera is adopting a "wait and see" approach. Minolta sadly went down the drain in large part because they had invested huge sums of money in the APS format. Leica clearly (and wisely) wishes to go slow on this. BTW, new prime 4/3 Leica lenses will be introduced in 2007. In the end, whether or not Leica Camera wishes to invest more R&D money into 4/3 lenses will depend on market reaction. If the 4/3 market develops and grows, you can expect more Leica 4/3 lenses (not just "Pana-Leica" lenses..). Time will tell.

Meanwhile, I think Leica is concentrating on producing as many M8 as it can - and on R&D for the future R10.

Cheers,
John F.

[fotografz]

I am a current DMR/9 user.

If Leica developed a 31X31 square sensor R10 I would be very interested in it. Having used a square sensor digital back on various cameras like the Contax 645, I know it's advantages.

You never have to reorient the camera. The focusing screen can have bright lines etched for landscape and portrait cropping if you wish to use it. Or you can compose for a square ... which is a long time option from MF cameras.

The 31 dimension doesn't present a problem for me. Most prints require cropping the long side of a 35mm frame anyway.

Current lenses would only require a new circular lens shade ... perhaps a system like that used by Contax which were all metal circular shades.