spylaw4 Posted February 24, 2009 Share #1 Posted February 24, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Has anyone else noticed that the R line (new equipment) has suddenly disappeared from the Red Dot Camera web-site? When asked, Ivor told me that this was on instruction from Leica, and that anyone wanting a new R lens etc. should get in touch fast with their local dealer. So why would Leica do this and what could it imply? Personally I would speculate that the decks are being cleared in preparation for a completely new range of lenses for the R10, and they don't want to be distracted by having to supply any new R stuff in the meantime. Timing and retro-compatability unknown! AF? - IS a la Panasonic? <ducks below parapet to avoid thrown shoes> Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 24, 2009 Posted February 24, 2009 Hi spylaw4, Take a look here The disappearing R. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted February 24, 2009 Share #2 Posted February 24, 2009 The R line was dropped from the catalogue last year, and I'd be amazed if an R lens had been made in the last 3 or 4 years. They have been "special orders" for ages now, and about 18 months ago, dealers had a big clear out of any remaining "demo" stock. Given what we think we know about the R10, clearing the decks of the old R information is going to allow a free run for the new stuff when it arrives and prevent any confusion. However, other Leica dealers still have R bodies and lenses listed, but maybe they just aren't as quick off the mark with the website updates as Ivor. The Leica website still has them listed in all their glory too... R pages at Leica Camera website"] R pages at Leica Camera website Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
masjah Posted February 24, 2009 Share #3 Posted February 24, 2009 I too noticed this, and I'm not surprised. A few weeks ago I posted a thread asking why the 280/4 R seemed to have disappeared from Leica dealers' listings, and I wondered whether and/or why Leica had "dropped" such a superb and iconic lens. Now we know why. I think (at least) it's true to say that backward compatibility has been assured with any new R10. Of course, an R10 would, these days, be dead in the water without AF, so a new range of R lenses would be inevitable. Either that, or there will be no R10, and that's it for the R system (though that doesn't square with Leica's public utterances hitherto). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted February 24, 2009 Share #4 Posted February 24, 2009 I'd be amazed if an R lens had been made in the last 3 or 4 years. Well, my 28-90 asph shows a serial no. 3989xxx, which is a quite recent number (I own the lens for about 2 years now), so they must have made some R-lenses at least. But I agree, they will most likely not have produced any R-lens in big numbers these days. Since all lenses are still listed on the official Leica website, I am pretty sure one could get each and every lens brand new, if desired. Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimF Posted February 24, 2009 Share #5 Posted February 24, 2009 Has anyone else noticed that the R line (new equipment) has suddenly disappeared from the Red Dot Camera web-site? When asked, Ivor told me that this was on instruction from Leica, and that anyone wanting a new R lens etc. should get in touch fast with their local dealer. Ah ha! I wonder if this is anything to do with the telephone call Ivor took from another well known dealer last Saturday when I was in. He did say the other chap wasn't best pleased at a letter he'd got from Leica. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 24, 2009 Share #6 Posted February 24, 2009 Well, the upside is that now is the time to buy used R glass. Prices and deals on used are very, very good, and it still holds its own (and more) optically against other manufacturer's offerings too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted February 24, 2009 Share #7 Posted February 24, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) When I was in Solms in June 07, they were still making R lenses . However it would make good sense for Leica to discontinue the R line until a new R10 model can be introduced. Not unlike the Auto industry ....keeping a line of products available and producing potential make to order lenses is exceptionally expensive. Leica will need to stay very focused on where they put their limited resources in 09/10 . We tend to think about the M,R and now the S models ..but they make more money on the Sport Optics and rebadged Panasonics . They have 5 new M lenses that match what I am sure they heard were desired . The 18/3.8 and the 21 and 24 /1.4 s were top of the list of desired new lenses when they were asking in 07. Getting those to market must be a priority. The M8.2 will sell as it has advantages and even though the decline in used M8 value hurts ..it opens the system to more people. This is where the revenue must come from. The S2 is the big gamble .. repositioning against the MF competition ..time will tell. Unfortunately the R just seems to complete the product offerings....if its an $8000 ..competitor to the D3x,IdsIII ...it may not fly. But if it comes out at the size of the R4-R7 and around $5K ...then it could be a real asset to the product mix. Hope this isn t wishful thinking as I am keeping quite a few R lenses. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted February 24, 2009 Share #8 Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) I guess the only ones who would order a brand new R glass would be distant customers without internet or telephone. Though I did for a moment consider to get a new 19/2.8 recently - but then decided to wait for the R10 no matter that the current 19/2.8 is hardly surpassed by a new AF. Another thought on this R matter is – that's at least what I operate on – that you decide your own future. I'm certain I will be using the R stuff I already got for quite many years, or at least enough time in future to be able to feel I got out of it what I wanted and expected. So all this uncertainty "if there will be R in the future" is to some little degree creating problems that isn't there. Of course there will be R equipment in the future. All the lenses already out there will continue to exist and can be used, and even the DMR I'm sure you can dig up some place for 10+ years. And that should be enough. [And we should actually be happy the Canon owners haven't found out about the R-to-Canon adapter and vacuum cleaned the second-hand R market already] My Leicaflex SL and 80/1.4 I'll take with me in the grave and shoot some angels to post(mortem) on the forum Edited February 24, 2009 by overgaardcom Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted February 24, 2009 Share #9 Posted February 24, 2009 Well put, Thorsten. I have difficulties understanding people that moan and groan about when and whether the R10 (substitute that by any given other model) will appear, and what the price will be. The truth is, most of us have enough camera gear already, and every picture may thus be taken, certainly no need to wait for yet another camera to shoot that image you have always been dreaming about. And my M and R gear will easily survive me, that's for sure. I even went the other way recently and acquired a late SL2 in perfect working condition. Found some matching lenses, too, at a price which made me think why is someone giving away these marvels for (almost) nothing. Cheers, Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 24, 2009 Share #10 Posted February 24, 2009 Though I did for a moment consider to get a new 19/2.8 recently - but then decided to wait for the R10 no matter that the current 19/2.8 is hardly surpassed by a new AF. [And we should actually be happy the Canon owners haven't found out about the R-to-Canon adapter and vacuum cleaned the second-hand R market already] Sorry Thorsten, I just mopped up 19mm MkII for use on a Canon (until an R10 appears!). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted February 24, 2009 Share #11 Posted February 24, 2009 Well put, Thorsten. I have difficulties understanding people that moan and groan about when and whether the R10 (substitute that by any given other model) will appear, and what the price will be. The truth is, most of us have enough camera gear already, and every picture may thus be taken, certainly no need to wait for yet another camera to shoot that image you have always been dreaming about. And my M and R gear will easily survive me, that's for sure. I even went the other way recently and acquired a late SL2 in perfect working condition. Found some matching lenses, too, at a price which made me think why is someone giving away these marvels for (almost) nothing. Cheers, Andy Andy Assuming you are referring to my post? I currently have most R lenses from 19 to 800 so I have a very large investment in R glass. (I have been a R user since the first SL was made available and have had most every model up thru the R9/DMR). But now I am dead ended by Leica s decision to prioritize the R line . The DMR is a great camera and I still use it frequently but its behind the times.....the ISO performance is similar to a MF back and even at 400 you lose significant IQ. At ISO 100 or 200 I still get the best color saturation I have seen in a DSLR . But its more difficult to use effectively than say a D700/D3 . I would love to have a 2nd body as I have always used 2 bodies when shooting....but investing in another DMR ..just doesn t seem worthwhile. So I impatiently wait for Leica to bring out its first true DSLR ...it doesn t have to have 25MP or ISO capability to 6400 ..but it does need to be FF, have weather sealing and ISO to 1600 with good image quality ..and it has to be smaller and lighter than the DMR /D3/1ds. Those seem like reasonable expectations . The issue on the price has more to do with my view of a successful product launch. Look at Nikon...they launched the D3 at $4999 and it pushed Nikon into 1st place in DSLR. Nikon launches the D3x at $8000 in a recession and nobody buys it. I am hoping that Leica will design the product to sell ....I don t care if its the absolute best in everything..as the glass is what keeps me in the R line. My point on the price was not to complain about Leica s premium pricing but more to highlight the strategic decision they must make. They seem to be taking a "damn the cost " approach for the most part with the S2 which maybe Ok in that segment but the R line needs to create some volume to fit into Leica s product strategy. Of course you can create great images only by actually getting out there and using the equipment...and the old line about " F8 and be there" still holds. But I am hoping it will be with a couple of R10 s . Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted February 24, 2009 Share #12 Posted February 24, 2009 Andy Assuming you are referring to my post? Roger, oh no, I had no one specific in mind, it was just a general remark and I felt to second Thorsten's view on creating problems that aren't there. What you say about the R10 is, of course, true when you actually need a DSLR to make your living. I am, however, the classic() amateur and in no desperate need for a DSLR. Rather, I still enjoy exposing slide films (color and B&W) and do not care about whether it takes 3 or 5 days to have them developed. It gives me ease of mind in these days, as I know what I have will do what I want it to do for a long time to come. That said, I do wish Leica the utmost success with both the S2 and the R10, as those will be two products the company will have to thrive on. Best, Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted February 24, 2009 Share #13 Posted February 24, 2009 R used gear seems relatively scarce too. Maybe all those Cannon DSLR users have gobbled up the lenses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted February 24, 2009 Share #14 Posted February 24, 2009 Leitax mounts. $5/6/8000 camera bodies are insane. I got a Nikon D700 and a bag full of lenses for what a R10 will cost. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlancasterd Posted February 24, 2009 Share #15 Posted February 24, 2009 I've just checked Ffordes website (https://secure.ffordes.com/index.htm) and they are still advertising a full range of R Lenses, the R9 and accessories. They also have a good selection of used R cameras and lenses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfgang Esslinger Posted February 24, 2009 Share #16 Posted February 24, 2009 Andy Assuming you are referring to my post? I currently have most R lenses from 19 to 800 so I have a very large investment in R glass. (I have been a R user since the first SL was made available and have had most every model up thru the R9/DMR). But now I am dead ended by Leica s decision to prioritize the R line . The DMR is a great camera and I still use it frequently but its behind the times.....the ISO performance is similar to a MF back and even at 400 you lose significant IQ. At ISO 100 or 200 I still get the best color saturation I have seen in a DSLR . But its more difficult to use effectively than say a D700/D3 . I would love to have a 2nd body as I have always used 2 bodies when shooting....but investing in another DMR ..just doesn t seem worthwhile. So I impatiently wait for Leica to bring out its first true DSLR ...it doesn t have to have 25MP or ISO capability to 6400 ..but it does need to be FF, have weather sealing and ISO to 1600 with good image quality ..and it has to be smaller and lighter than the DMR /D3/1ds. Those seem like reasonable expectations . The issue on the price has more to do with my view of a successful product launch. Look at Nikon...they launched the D3 at $4999 and it pushed Nikon into 1st place in DSLR. Nikon launches the D3x at $8000 in a recession and nobody buys it. I am hoping that Leica will design the product to sell ....I don t care if its the absolute best in everything..as the glass is what keeps me in the R line. My point on the price was not to complain about Leica s premium pricing but more to highlight the strategic decision they must make. They seem to be taking a "damn the cost " approach for the most part with the S2 which maybe Ok in that segment but the R line needs to create some volume to fit into Leica s product strategy. Of course you can create great images only by actually getting out there and using the equipment...and the old line about " F8 and be there" still holds. But I am hoping it will be with a couple of R10 s . Roger A very substantiated comment in my opinion. Fully agree with the remarks on the DMR. In analog times Leica stood for best pictures (I think) and therefore people were willing to accept the negatives (price, features, weight...). Nowadays I think Leica has to stand up to this heritage, and this is far more difficult (sensor size, electronics, software...). I fully agree that Leica has to offer a reasonable priced R10. There is no point in topping a D3x on all accounts because - contrary to analog times - it will be temporary only (see DMR at higher ISO). Much better to focus on one or two features only. One way could be to focus on available light photography with M-series (i.e. develop top quality at high ISO) and focus on extremely sharp results with R-series. Leica has always been different in at least one way and needs to continue this tradition - ideally at a reasonable cost Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted February 24, 2009 Share #17 Posted February 24, 2009 It speaks to the timing of the R10 also. Sounds like maybe this year. And that's all very ironic for me, because I'm putting together right now a film R system for a birds and bees trip this fall. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted February 25, 2009 Share #18 Posted February 25, 2009 The issue on the price has more to do with my view of a successful product launch. Look at Nikon...they launched the D3 at $4999 and it pushed Nikon into 1st place in DSLR. Nikon launches the D3x at $8000 in a recession and nobody buys it. Some interesting points. Wonder how things would have been if Nikon had launched the D3x first and the D3 now. Probably wouldn't have had the same effect, even that's the usual way of launching products; the first movers get to pay the highest price, the bulk market get the less expensive product. So if Leica actually do launch, as they indicated, both an R10 and a "mini D10" (equivalent to the Canon D5), I think they would get more market out of launching the mini first. Given the present situation of Leica however, I do think investing in the S2 as the main camera, is the right move. Because it's a technology benchmark from which to develop a new market. And in that context it doesn't matter if it sell or not. As long as they launch smaller ones that does. As for current technology, I use my Digilux 2 exclusively at ISO 100 and the DMR on 100-200 ISO most of the time, 400-800 if I have to. I don't have the "need" for fast AF or high ISO as I'm living in a time pocket two years behind of present time (so whenever I want to predict the future I just look out the window ;-) No, what I mean, what is there is great pictures in the DMR and an advancement from film, which is what I left a year ago as probably the last one (at least other photographers stopped shooting when they heard the sound of a motor winder next to them). Someone said he could get a Nikon and a bag full of lenses for the price of R10. But what he can never get is that feeling and that look. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted February 25, 2009 Share #19 Posted February 25, 2009 Leitax mounts. $5/6/8000 camera bodies are insane. I got a Nikon D700 and a bag full of lenses for what a R10 will cost. That's fine, and what you have then is a Nikon outfit. Not a Leica outfit. They are different animals. I agree that the cost of bodies is too high - especially when they are obsolete in less than five years. I have just recently purchased an R7 and my old favorite - an SL2mot and Motor - there are those that wait patiently for the R10, don't care about ROM lenses, shoot film, take our time composing - what Leicas are great for. Leica will probably just keep what R lenses they have on hand and sell them as needed; not unlike what Nikon did with their line of fine manual focus lenses into the AF age. My concern is whether non-ROM lenses will be usable on an R10 - I know it has been said that 'current' lenses will be usable - does 'current' mean ROM only versions? This would influence my decision to have the R10 - I won't give up my existing non ROM glass to shoot with a digital body. I guess if that were the case I would have to pony up the cash for the new auto-glass - time will tell.......now, where's that user-friendly SL2mot with the loud motor? mmmmmmmmm..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
howard_cummer Posted February 25, 2009 Share #20 Posted February 25, 2009 I think what Tobey may be saying is that he bought a Nikon D700 and then used Leitax mounts to turn his R lenses into Nikon mount lenses. This is what I have done and I am enjoying using my 19 Elmarit V1 (VII hits the Nikon mirror like it does on the Canon 5D) 90 Summicron and 180 Telyt APO on the D700 which is at present one of the best digital platforms on the planet. I am also going to change my 28 Elmarit ROM and 100 APO Macro ROM when the mounts have been proven. This change is reversible and if I can afford a R10 then I can change the lenses back. If not I can continue with the D700 or its successor (which will likely have the D3X sensor). These changes give us Leica R glass lovers more options than just waiting for the R10. Please see the Leitax site at leitax.com Cheers Howard Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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