Decisive Moment / Street Photography

[leica_mage]

Originally Posted by earleygallery

Street Photography certainly can be in colour, it's nonsense to say you must use B&W.

earleygallery,

Did you allot sufficient time to this postulation before formulating it, or did you just spin it off without a second thought?

I never discounted colour off-hand for street photography. I implied it is the rule, that is why I said that '[f]or me, street excludes colour' and then went on to add that: 'Not that there can not be a 'decisive moment' captured in colour, but the snag is that it has to be a 'decisive moment' in motion as well as a 'decisive moment' in colour juxtaposition.'

Please try and read what others say and to restrain yourself from characterising others' opinions here as 'nonsense', if that's all right by you. I formulated mine as a generalisation and provided sufficient elbow room for exceptions.

Highly appreciated,

[earleygallery]

Sorry KP, but I wasn't responding to your post specifically, I was giving my answers to Scott's questions. I didnt' refer to 'decisive moments' either.

[leica_mage]

Originally Posted by earleygallery

Sorry KP, but I wasn't responding to your post specifically, I was giving my answers to Scott's questions. I didnt' refer to 'decisive moments' either.

Thanks earleygallery. Recently I was extremely pissed off about an insulting post...please, don't start with this again KP--ABr...so I am a bit on guard, because 'Leica Camera User Forum' prides itself on being a class above the rest but doesn't always live up to that reputation. There are a few moody people here who occasionally screw things up.

Best indeed and thanks again,

PS. If you were in Paris, I'm sorry I missed you. Unfortunately, I fell quite ill and am homebound 'till at least tomorrow...

[frc]

Hello Wide-angle,


Primarily, streephotography, in my opinion has evolved into a dogma state.
Fast B&W film, Leica rangefinder camera, a need to resemble the early work, no colour, definitely no digital, etc.
Secundly, although HBC is concidered to be the ultimate street photographer he did do a lot of portraits. In my opinion your picture of the fatigue supergirl falls into this category.
Streetphotography as I see it is a way of capturing social and environmental interaction of people in the street or in a public accessible space.
Anyway, no matter how you or anyone else categorizes this image, I like it.


Regards,


Fr.

[Bernd Banken]

a picture says more than hundred words...

[nemeng]

I second the opinion that Street Photography has become overly dogmatic.

Check out the "Street and Documentary" forum on photo.nut, or else google for the "Streetphoto Forum" (used to be admin'ed by John Brownlow - don't know who runs it now).

If you believe all the traffic at the above lists, SP can only be: (1) Done in NYC or London; (2) Done by F/Art graduates; (3) Use grainy, poorly processed B&W; (3) The more tilt the better; (4) Be from behind; (5) Concentrated mostly on have-not subjects.

Sigh. I had to write a full page of arguments for my particular SP project just to refute the academic waffle and sniping it attracted: 4020 Φ Critics

FWIW, as far as I'm concerned... SP is taking candid, unposed, unrehearsed photos of people in public places. The End :?)

[wide.angle]

My interest initially stemmed from a comment, actually a few comments by people interested in a street photography contest where we were supposed to be capturing the decisive moment. I read some description at Wikipedia, on street photography, looked at HCB's work, and saw the portrait-like "decisive moments" in his book "The Decisive Moment", and decided to enter the image of the girl. I know it isn't my best work, but I wasn't sure where it stood -- so why not.

Then I had people tell me I should not have submitted it because it isn't street photography at all. When challenged, I got varying answers, but none really supporting their position.

I can handle criticism of my work, but didn't think it was fair to categorically exclude my work.

I also thought about desaturating the image, but decided to leave it as shot. I felt like while BW seems to be given higher status as street shots, it is in part a product of the technology available to those like HCB, and today's followers seeing the early work in BW.

Though the complaints of my submission may or may not have any merit, my quest became much broader than defending my image as a legitimate submission in the contest... I want to understand in some objective way how to see and appreciate in a categorical sense that which so many people praise.

I have to get back to family duties, so I'll say more later! Thanks for the viewpoints so far!!

[lct]

You asked for comparison to a giant's masterpieces, Scott, what kind of answers did you expect actually?

[wide.angle]

LCT, I used this "giant's masterpiece" on purpose, it was necessary. I had to find a standard to compare mine against (not so in terms of how great mine is, but in terms of what it is or is not), so I went to HCB's work. Then I looked for a composition that seemed similar to mine.

It was what I think was the best way to frame the debate. It would be difficult to challenge a standard -- image by HCB in a book called "decisive moment" as not being a "decisive moment" and/or street photography (depending on whether those are one in the same). The debate would not work if and for people that simply say I have the wrong standard, and these images by HCB are not decisive moment / street photography.

Does this make sense?

[lct]

Yes it does of course but boy you are braver than me!

[frc]

Hi Ltc and Wide-angle,


In a comparison as made I cannot see any harm.
No one has taken place in a throne next to HBC.
And even if so,.....
HBC was a humble and broadminded person.
The turmoil in this thread would have made him laugh.
He would have raised the shouldres, smiled,
and shaken hands with the person sitting next to him.
Bon soir monsieur.


Best,

Fr.

[reddawn]

Originally Posted by frc

HBC was a humble and broadminded person.

huh? humble, possibly. Broadminded? I don't think so!

[frc]

Dogmatism and shortsightedness do not produce good photography.
Either your taste or not, HBC has compiled an oeuvre that has undeniable qualities.
Yes, broadmindedness imho was one of his virtues.

[batmobile]

What constitutes street photography surely does not matter? It is just a term that people use to categorise shots of humans and their environment generally taken outdoors and not personal to the taker. Photography is hugley variable and categories of photography are arbitrary lines drawn. I agree that street can include inanimate things which I guess means that the decisive moment can in some cases last quite a while. in which case it is not the actual moment as much as the precise relationships between things which tell a whole story. A spatial relationship or one related to the moment which captures the essence.

I feel that the decisive moment is akin to humour. Computers may be good at chess but they are bad at jokes. They would have the same trouble explaining the subtleties that can morph an ordinary scene into something incredibly insightful, poingniant or just plain curiosity arousing. Therefore it is probably better described by the response to it than analysis of it per se.

I would stop caring what is what if i were you. I just dont hink it matters. I went thru a phase where I got very frustrated. now I do what I do and could not care less. My photography has improved and become more enoyable as I have become more instinitve and more 'me' rather than trying to make my images fit into someone elses boxes. The most destructive thing a photographer can do IMO is to emulate. Even if this is not in your mind, your post suggests (and please dont be offended) that this is influencing you. Screw what HCB did and what it was called. Do what you do and if it becomes something else altogether it will probably all the better for it. I have prob gone too far and may have missed the mark. Equally, I have been down a similar road and it leads nowhere.

By the way, one of the best photo books I have read in years is "Tao of photography". Some may not like it, but I am a screwed up individual to start with and live a somewhat unorthodox existance so it seemed quite normal to me. It really nails the indentity/originality theme.

Best of luck,

Tom

[bobtodrick]

Off topic...but...coffee beans should not be frozen. If you buy your coffee in bulk, split them into smaller air tight containers and store them away from light.
But freezing the oils in the bean definitey degrades the coffee.
Sorry...a great thread BTW...it's just that as a coffee-aholic (as much as a Leicaphile) I couldn't let this go.

[wide.angle]

Thanks for your perspective Tom. I wasn't trying to emulate HCB, only to use his image(s) to prove that my image belonged in a contest capturing the "decisive moment," when others objected to its submission.

I also agree that in reality its a really irrelevant argument, this was the first time I ever put something into a contest and thought it would be fun...what a downer.

[wide.angle]

Bob, really??? I love coffee, hand grind my beans, use french press. All said, I think it tastes much better than, e.g., Starbucks, but I DO freeze my beans. Thanks for the tip, I'll try storing some differently and see if it improves even more! )

PS> If you go to my website (see signature below), you will see I wrote on my journal about my addiction to coffee! LOL.

[Juan Ramos]

Wide.angle,

Your original question as I understood it, was what street photography and or the "decisive moment" were -. I think that Pascal and Early Gallery’s answer and explanation was perfect. I wish we could have more of that in our forum, after all, we all log into it “to learn” something from other people with similar interests. And I think that your use of the maestro Cartier-Bresson's photograph was justified in looking for an answer.

IMHO, what made and makes the maestro's work a completely different experience is precisely the observance of rules “he” imposed on himself regarding composition and the role it played in “his” view of the world. It is undeniable that he had a natural gift to “sense” a composition coming together which he very diligently and successfully capture on film. He made the statement many times that “he was not” a photographer, that he used the camera as a sketchbook because of his natural impatience, that it was “the extension of his eye”. And he was right (of course), to define himself as not a photographer, he was first an artist, who found through photography a way of “painting” faster, of sketching faster. He proved beyond any doubt, that decisive moments could happen anywhere in the world, the man “traveled” it and the “artist” showed it to us.

I think that the label “street photography” is just a way identifying photographs that are taken of every day life. Not always with a photojournalistic or special motive in mind than to capture a moment.

The maestro’s images always had something in common, his images ask questions, what’s it all about? What is going to happen next? What has just happened? What is happening now? As in the case of his photos of the coronation of the King of England.

I apologized for the lengthy answer… and hope this contributes to your question

[bobtodrick]

Scott...check out another great site CoffeeGeek - News, Reviews, Opinion and Community for Coffee and Espresso

[Findus]

Worldwide there must be millions and millions of photographers part of which analyze "old" photos taken by renowned photographers ... can I say Copy here ?

The decisive moment is not up to other people to decide, the dicisive moment is totally yours ....

Don't you all get a faint belly feeling seeing all these "repro" shots. If you asl a question like this you will be sure never to catch a distinctive decidive moment, how ever hard you try.

(Edited by FF,Moderator)

M.