Heads Up - Lens Price Increases

[marknorton]

At Photokina yesterday, I got hold of a new German price list which is effective from 1 October to the end of the year. There will be yet another new price list then as German VAT increases from 16% to 19% from the start of the year.

Leaving that aside, we can see the gradual increase in lens prices. Taking the 35mm Summilux-M ASPH as an example:

- 1 May 2005: €2800
- 1 January 2006: €2900
- 1 October 2006: €3000

This new increase is pretty much across the board to take account of lens coding.

BUT....

There's one lens which is about to go up in price by a much bigger amount and that is the 24mm Elmarit-M ASPH which, as you know, has new status as the widest lens the M8 will handle natively, so maybe Leica are taking advantage of that fact to raise the price.

- 1 May 2005: €2400
- 1 January 2006: €2450
- 1 October 2006: €2990

The message is clear, if you are minded to buy one of these lenses, you need to order it today.

[wattsy]

Being an existing M user with a decent crop of M lenses, it's easy to forget how prohibitively expensive it is becoming to get into the system beyond a lens or two. The new M8 is competitively priced at £3K but I wonder how many non-M users who are interested in this camera will carry through that interest once they realise the cost of the lenses. With an F2.8 (24mm) lens now costing in excess of £2K, I guess many will look to the Cosina made stuff to flesh out the system.

[wizard]

Well, Ian, I think Leica have realized this themselves, and that's why they have introduced, may be as a first lens of a series?, the new 2.8/28asph. which in my view is very competitively prices at € 1350,- incl. German VAT, bearing in mind the previous 2.8/28 was priced at € 1900,- before production stopped.

Cheers,

Andy

[marknorton]

The pricing of the camera and new lenses is more aggressive that we might have thought. The new Tri-Elmar is the same price as the 21mm Elmarit-M ASPH so an interesting trade-off of versatility against speed against size.

I agree the 28mm is especially welcome and is right at the tipping point. Starting with €1350 for the 28mm f2.8, you can go one step faster (28/2) for an extra €1450, one step wider (24/2.8) for an extra €1640, or one step faster and narrower (35/2) for an extra €700. Makes the 28/2.8 a no-brainer as a starting point.

Certainly points to a new approach to lens pricing and this lens, combined with a 50mm Summicron/Elmar and a 90mm Macro-Elmar makes an attractive and compact lens set.

[albertwang]

Geewhiz, Leica again having this foolish move!

Why can't they start giving discounts seriously? At least even Cannon gives discounts and rebates (which they should considering how shebangjunky it is)...!!!!

Leica, if you want to have younger people buying into your stuff, you must have some lens at introductory prices... grrrr.

[pxlpal2]

Pricing for this system is becoming absurd. The quality of image vs. the dollar spent is quickly reaching a point of diminishing return. Today, one can go out and purchase a Nikon D200 or a Canon 5d, several AFS or L zoom 2.8 lenses and a 50 f1.4 or f1.2, and go out and make images that when printed at 16 x 20" or larger, rival anything (for most intents and purposes) that comes out of an M8 and 3 or 4 primes. That person may not have a camera that feels like a smooth, solid brass doorstop but if the image is what matters, he or she will still have several thousand in the bank. If a pro were the one buying, the minute a rental was required in all but a few locations, the M8 would be out the window along with the hugely expensive lenses.
I am glad that I own an MP and an old IIIf with a couple of nice 50mm lenses, but I doubt I will ever buy a new Leica lens or body. Moderator, maybe you should delete my membership as this is a company web site. But come on folks, the return just doesn't equal the expenditure any more.

Regards,

Frank M.

[rsh]

Leica lenses will always be pricey and will probably never go south in price unless the company contracts with an Asian manufacturer to produce the lenses. The quality would certainly be as good, with the only external change being the engraving noting the country of assembly. Most likely, it would say: Designed by: Leica Camera Germany, Made in Japan.


I doubt it would affect the value of the German made lenses as they will become far more precious commodities for those people that prefer to use a Leica Lens because it says Made in Germany.

I truly believe the company would benefit greatly if it made this move.

I think the M8 is for people who own some nice Leica M Lenses and want to use them digital.

Leica is not looking for new clients without any M equipment.

[albertwang]

Then what's the point of staying in business if they don't want to add any more M users?

[wizard]

It's all relative. The price for a Summicron 50mm lens in 1957, i.e. almost 50 years ago, was 785,- DM in Germany, which in todays money would be roughly € 400.- In 1957, 785.- DM was an awful lot of money. People still bought the Summicron.

Today a (much better!) current Summicron 50 costs € 1300.- new! And, BTW, a Summicron 50mm from 1957 in excellent condition still fetches € 400 or more. So in 50(!) years the price for the new item has a little more than tripled. Go ask your accounts manager whether that makes the current Summicron expensive (in relation to the price in 1957) or not. There were cheaper lenses available in 1957, too. Nobody bothers to buy them today.

Cheers,

Andy

[leicapfile]

Lens prices up?

That will make my heirs happy.

Best,

Jerry

[rsh]

Leica is indeed looking for new buyers, otherwise they would not have spent the money to design and build the M8. Initially, eighty percent of the M8 purchasers will be existing M owners, but I believe the camera will appeal to those who want Leica optics, but have waited for a digital solution. Remember, it is not neccessary to start with a bevy of lenses. One will do.

With the decision to market the Panasonic cameras under the Leica name, the company will begin to attract new buyers whom may enventually move on to an M8. The income from these cameras will help Leica grow and come out with new and even more exciting products in the future. Sure the Leica equivalents will be more expensive, but you will get a longer warranty, and with an electronic camera, that is a necessity.

[albertwang]

Originally Posted by wizard

It's all relative. The price for a Summicron 50mm lens in 1957, i.e. almost 50 years ago, was 785,- DM in Germany, which in todays money would be roughly € 400.- In 1957, 785.- DM was an awful lot of money. People still bought the Summicron.

Today a (much better!) current Summicron 50 costs € 1300.- new! And, BTW, a Summicron 50mm from 1957 in excellent condition still fetches € 400 or more. So in 50(!) years the price for the new item has a little more than tripled. Go ask your accounts manager whether that makes the current Summicron expensive (in relation to the price in 1957) or not. There were cheaper lenses available in 1957, too. Nobody bothers to buy them today.

Cheers,

Andy

I disagree with this economic comparison. The price of the Summicron back in the 50's can't be inflated in such a manner because the market forces haven't been linear-log since that time. There are too many factors to consider.

Honestly you have to admit that the Summicron of today isn't too overpriced relative to other Leica equipment but it's way overpriced to the Zeiss counterpart which is nearly just as well built or the Voigtlander which is very admirable too!

In fact, the Voigtlander makes for good things on the impending M8.

[stunsworth]

Alfie, there have always been cheaper alternatives to Leica and there always will be. While production is largely manual and based in Europe the prices will remain high.

If you're happy with with your Zeiss or Voigtlander lenses then that's fine.

[bindrar]

As a newbie (although middle aged) I start with a new 75mm f2 and 2nd hand 35mm f2. The "younger" photographer will not be buying the new lenses of today. Instead they will get a 1970's £399 50mm f1.4 which is shabby on the outside but the glass is clean - or something even cheaper dating back to the 60's. Then when they have a bit of money, they will sell this on ebay and get something better. There will always be people who recognise quality and buy it (I hope). And of course I am tempted by the Zeiss lenses too...

[cbretteville]

The second hand option is the only sencible way to get into Ms for a non pro. There are a lot of lenses floating in great condition and at a price that id much easier to swallow than whatever the list price might be. I have one lens that was new when I got it (for my 40th birthday). The rest of my Leica glass was owned by people before me. A couple of them looks like new, its just the box being white rather than silver that gives it away.

It eases the pain, you just have to do without the brand new designs for a while and be willing to wait and take a calculated risk when buying.

Voigtländer lenses are good enough and cheap enough, new even, that most enthusiasts cab afford to test a focal length. I got a second hand CV21 to see how a real wide angle would work for me. It is hard to controll and I'm not sure I like it (so I got a CV25 as well which I really like). Had that 21mm been a brand new Elmarit I'd been thinking maaybe I should sell it to recover some of the cost. I can let the CV sit on a shelf for a while without that kind of thoughs creeping into my head.

- Carl

[albertwang]

Originally Posted by bindrar

recognise quality and buy it (I hope). And of course I am tempted by the Zeiss lenses too...

In fact, there are pros who prefer the Zeiss version. You can't argue with the smoothie look.

[abrewer]

Leica lens prices up?

Well, it's certainly about time!

With the introduction of the M8 Leica have served the proof that their lenses will continue to have a suitable camera body for the foreseeable future. Moreover, M-mount lenses reaching back as far as 1954 will work on the camera.

Yes, you can start your career with a 5D and 24-70L, 70-200L kit for substantially less; but you haven't anything more than a Canon and last year's lenses (already being discarded in favor of the 28-135L). In a couple of years the kit will be worth half what it is today, if you can find a buyer willing to buy a four to five year old digital rig that is "so Yesterday" in the competitive digicam marketplace.

Or perhaps you'll realize that the money spent today for a kit that's going to spend easily ten or twenty years in your bag will eventually be the more "economical" purchase.

I've always believed in paying a little more for something that was of the highest quality, was durable, and gave me pride of ownership. The incremental increases we've seen from Leica are consistent with what's going on with other prices for quality goods.

Borrow the money. Buy the Leica. Laugh all the way to the bank when your neighbor is on his third or fourth digicam in 2016.

Thanks.

Allan

[albertwang]

Originally Posted by abrewer

Leica lens prices up?

Well, it's certainly about time!

n

You've gotta be kidding eh?

[xray]

Originally Posted by abrewer

Leica lens prices up?

Yes, you can start your career with a 5D and 24-70L, 70-200L kit for substantially less; but you haven't anything more than a Canon and last year's lenses (already being discarded in favor of the 28-135L). In a couple of years the kit will be worth half what it is today, if you can find a buyer willing to buy a four to five year old digital rig that is "so Yesterday" in the competitive digicam marketplace.

Allan

Allan:

I started my career with Leica M's nearly 4 decades ago and have used them since then. As a matter of fact i just purchased a pair of a la carte MP's and a 50 1.4 asph, 75 summilux, 90 AA 35 CV Nokton and Zeiss 35 Biogon to replace my v4 35 summicron. I use my M's for documentary projects that I shoot and use Canon 1DsII cameras and a trunk full of prime and zoom L glass. The way I view equipment is this way, I purchase a particular system or item to make money. If I make money as I should with that equipment at the end of it's life relating to technology advances I can toss the gear in the trash and I have lost nothing. Say I use my 1DsII system and make $500,000 a year with it and I depreciate it from my taxes I don't see it as being important if it has any value at all. At the end of the technology cycle, 18 months, I've made $750,000 and made my clients happy and that's what counts. Give the equipemnt to charity anf move on to the new equipment.

Technology doubles every 18 months whether a company like Leica takes advantage of it or not. If Leica doesn't keep up with the advances they will be left in the dust. Even though leica may not choose to advance their technology every 18 months that doesn't mean they are staying up with the rest of the market. The digital camera in your bag that's five, ten or fifteen years old is ancient by todays standarda and will have no value at all other than to a collector of antiques. Digital is simply different than film equipment.

Assuming the M8 is a fine camera it's no cutting edge marvel. It's early in the M8 life and the camera firmware will certainly be tweeked in the next few months but how much improvement will there be. Even given advances the M8 is of limited interest to me due to only 10mp. A 30 meg file doesn't give an art director much to work with if enlarged much and cropped. Why pay $4750 for a camera with a 10mp sensor when I can buy a 12 mp camera for under $3000 or a 16 mp camera for around $5,500.

Leicas lenses are good but not better than many other lenses on the market. Even in M lenses the ZM glass is spectacular and a fraction of the cost. CV lenses are no slouch and they are even cheaper. Both Canon and Nikon have some of the finest glass in the world including Leica and Zeiss. In the digital age it's less important to build a camera that will last for decades because of the advances in digital technology.

I certainly hope the M8 pulls Leica out of the trash. Leica's a tradition and without question produces fine equipment. It would be sad to see them fold.