An unedifying experience and a realisation

[bill]

Now, before I start, I should point out that this is not a Voigtlander-bashing thread. I think they make some splendid lenses, and have revitalised the rangefinder market.

But.

Some of you will remember that I dipped my toe into the RF-digital waters with an RD-1s. I kept it a few months then sold it on. No matter how I tried, I could not warm to it. I put it down to a digital thing - it bruised my workflow, and I just didn't enjoy using it. I am happy, by the way, using Olympus digital SLRs but that is a different experience altogether.

So, to my point. I recently acquired a Bessa R as a "high tech" body for my LTM lenses. Much as I love my IID, not all my screwmount lenses sit comfortably on it and I thought that a more "conventional" Bessa body would make a good backup, and occasional user.

I have just returned from a short break in Riva del Garda. A beautiful location, photogenic and easy on the eye. I took my IID and the Bessa R, with a small selection of lenses (yes really), intending to use the Leica as usual for black and white, and the Voigtlander for colour. It was the first time I had used it, leisure time being a bit of a luxury these days.

I was sorely disappointed in the Bessa. There was no one thing that made it a bad camera, but just so many things that, put together, made it not nice to use. In no particular order they were:

1. Balance - the Bessa hangs from it's strap lugs pointing skywards with anything other than the heaviest lenses.

2. Film advance - notchy and agricultural, and impossible to "inch" like an M.

3. RF patch flareout - unless your eye is exactly in the right position, the patch disappears.

4. Manual frame selection - ok, I know I should know better, but I misframed three or four times because I simply forgot to switch over.

5. Handling - I just cannot warm to the proportions of the Voigtlander body. It feels too tall to me, out of proportion to it's width and thickness.

I know this is all a very personal thing, but it just isn't a Leica. It's a camera in it's own right, I know, but just so unedifying to use. I haven't even developed the images I took with it, but I already know there are no real keepers. My mood, my eye, were affected by the experience. I ended up shooting far more than I expected with the IID, even loading it with colour film rather than go on using the Bessa.

The realisation? I think it is actually twofold. Firstly, it wasn't the digital-ness of the RD-1 that I disliked all those months ago, it was the Bessa-ness.

Secondly, Leica, in M and screwmount forms, simply is as good as it gets in terms of handling and user enjoyment. Anything else just doesn't come close.

Regards,

Bill

[earleygallery]

Hi Bill,

I've not used a Bessa - I did come close to buying the L model (the one without any viewfinder/rangefinder which they made for use with the wideangles) as an alternative to using my very precious (to me) lllf so much, but I just knew after handling it that it wouldn't be the same and I'd miss and revert back to the Leica.

It will sound silly to some but there just wasnt the same tactile experience of using the lllf and like you, I'm sure that would in some way affect my photography too.

Maybe not that silly though. I recall a famous author (although I can't recall exactly who!) saying that they used different types of pen/pencil and paper depending on what they were writing - they were writing a short story at the time, wanted a casual style to it and chose a cheap notepad and bic biro. More poetic writing was done on handmade paper with an expensive fountain pen.

[Kasimir]

You may add to Your list that

6. the shutter sounds like a horsebit (the M8 sounds lovely in comparison)

7. the leather of my Bessa came off after 4 month and had to be replaced by a cameraleather gaot kit skin

[Peyton Hoge]

Bill,
Not to judge the Bessa, but you said it yourself..........."but it just isn't a Leica".

Peyton

[moikle]

What are everyone’s thoughts on the Zeiss Ikon? Is that too Bessa like? I must admit it appeals to me..............I think.

Mike

[stunsworth]

Mike, personally I'd pay a little extra and buy a used M6.

Lets not forget the Bessas are (relatively) inexpensive cameras based on an even more inexpensive bargain bucket SLR chassis. It shouldn't be a surprise that they're not as 'good' as a Leica.

[jaapv]

I quite understand - Although I was chomping at the bit to use my M lenses digitally, I never bought a RD1 - just because I did not feel comfortable with the Bessa. Certainly not a bad camera - but not a Leica. And I do like CV lenses - some of them.

[bobtodrick]

Gee, lets see...fix all the thing you've mentioned and quess what?
The $700 Voigtlander will cost you $3000.
Do you not see the issue here...
If only I could get that $10000 Hyundai to run like a Mercedes!

[jimmy pro]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

..
If only I could get that $10000 Hyundai to run like a Mercedes!

I guess you haven't seen the reliability reports on those two brands for the last 4-5 years

[bill]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

Gee, lets see...fix all the thing you've mentioned and quess what?
The $700 Voigtlander will cost you $3000.
Do you not see the issue here...
If only I could get that $10000 Hyundai to run like a Mercedes!

Bob, I fear you miss my point. I don't want to "fix" anything. I said I didn't want to start a Voigtlander-bashing thread, and I said this was my personal experience. YMMV. The Bessa, in design and handling terms is not for me, and now I know it, I won't waste any more time on VC and VC-based bodies. I shared my experiences and thoughts to help others, not to state the bleeding obvious.

regards,

Bill

[haris]

I use Bessa R2A, and what Bill said is true. Then again I don't see any of those as problem, I use it and for me it is OK.

Then, compare new Bessa R2A price (around 500 euros) and new M7 or MP price (around 3000 euros), and there it is: you get what you pay for.

Regards

P. S. Are those Bessa's faults 2,500 euros expencive faults?

[peter_n]

Originally Posted by moikle

What are everyone’s thoughts on the Zeiss Ikon? Is that too Bessa like? I must admit it appeals to me..............I think.

It has a fantastic VF and aperture priority AE. I have used one but not owned one. There are many forum threads about the camera, RFF is a good place to start.

[earleygallery]

Bill isn't comparing the Bessa directly to an M7 or MP though. His LTM is probably less expensive to buy than a new Bessa, and a s/h M2 is around the same sort of money.

But its not simply a comparison of features - I totally get what he's saying, although as pointed out I've not actually used a Bessa. I do have a Zorki and the same really applies to that as well, fine camera though it is (really).

Like the author I mentioned, I do think/act differently with different cameras. Maybe it is just a matter of perception and nothing else.

[bill]

Originally Posted by earleygallery

Bill isn't comparing the Bessa directly to an M7 or MP though. His LTM is probably less expensive to buy than a new Bessa, and a s/h M2 is around the same sort of money.

James is right. Let me give you a practical example. 2 or 3 times I framed up with the Bessa then realised I still had the lens cap on. When using my IID (for example), it's a "physical memory" (no conscious thought) process - cap off, lens extended and locked, infinity lock disengaged and camera brought to eye, already roughly focussed, all in one go. The Bessa doesn't "flow" for me, where LTM and M bodies do. Again, it doesn't make it a "bad" camera, just one that doesn't suit me. And again, I go back to one of my earlier points - I now realise it wasn't the "digitality" of the RD-1 that jarred with me, it was the "Bessa-ness".

Regards,

Bill

[darkstar2004]

Originally Posted by Peyton Hoge

Bill,
Not to judge the Bessa, but you said it yourself..........."but it just isn't a Leica".

Peyton

Um... "You get what you pay for - one way or the or the other" comes to mind...

[marknorton]

So, if it was the Bessa-ness of the R-D1s which got to you, maybe you should try an M8?

I quite like the R-D1 when I go back to it though, especially the manual wind.

[stunsworth]

Bill, if you want a play with an M8, bring an SD card along with you to Krakow and you can borrow mine (for a limited period <grin>).

[stnami]

* I own use both a RD-1 and a Bessa R4A side by side most times except when the Bessa is swapped for the Ricoh GR1 ......... the RD-1 handles better and quite differently to the Bessa ...................though the Bessa with a 21 can be a breeze to use..........point and shoot mentality

*The lugs are a pain but then I don't hang a camera around my neck or shoulders, agricultural winders are ok, they are effective and work fine.

* No problems with a patch on the R4A and I don't need a external VF using a 28,25 or 21 mm lens.

[bill]

Originally Posted by marknorton

So, if it was the Bessa-ness of the R-D1s which got to you, maybe you should try an M8?

Mark, somewhere else here, and I simply can't be arsed to find it right now, I have said why the M8 doesn't work for me. I have tried one on a number of occasions, but it leaves me cold. I await the "next generation" Leica DRF with great interest. I see no reason to compromise in the meantime just for the over-rated "convenience" of digital.

Regards,

Bill

[bobtodrick]

That was my point Bill!!
You start your thread claiming you aren't 'bashing' Voigtlander...then proceed to do so.
One buys the Voigtlander because one can't justify spending the money for a Leica body.
That's obvious.
I guess I just feel the original point is...pointless. When one decides to save $2500 by buying the Voigtlander one should realize it isn't going to be a Leica.
Your original post didn't seem to be comparing the cameras...you seemed to be complaining about all the shortcomings of the Voigtlander...for the price there aren't many.