New Noctilux will be launched...

[Saloti]

Originally Posted by thrid

Even more expensive? The list price for the old version was around $6000 dollars.
Does Leica really expect people to shell out even more than that (an already ridiculous amount)?

Originally Posted by Riccis

I usually don't participate in speculative threads, but something tells me that the new Noctilux may be smaller than the current/last version (somewhere about the same size as the 50 lux or 75 cron)...

Cheers,

Riccis, this time it is not speculation in as far as one of the leading dealers in Germany
gave me the information, written............

[Riccis]

Originally Posted by Saloti

Riccis, this time it is not speculation in as far as one of the leading dealers in Germany
gave me the information, written............

Lothar:

Please accept my apologies if my comments sounded offensive as those were not my intentions.

Cheers,

[peter_n]

Originally Posted by earleygallery

But isn't that like saying 'what's the point of a Summilux when you can have the Summicron instead,....or the Summarit.......'

No I don't think so James. The charm of the current Noctilux is a result of the aberrations. I'm speculating that the new one won't have any aberrations - it will be highly corrected like the 50/1.4 ASPH. And where's the charm in that? It will be just like a faster 50 ASPH, and nothing like the current Noctilux.

I would go for this new lens if it was f1 or faster, about the size of the current ASPH (i.e. significantly smaller than the current Noct), and rendered the image wide-open and stopped down a bit the same as the current optic. But how is Leica going to do that if the glass that was used in the current Noct is no longer available? Maybe they've somehow found a formula to reproduce the look of the current lens but somehow I doubt it. Maybe the new lens will have a completely different wild & crazy look to it that will have us all jumping up & down with joy...

I just hope it's different from the current batch of ASPH lenses, that's all.

[rosuna]

The Noctilux experienced a strong increase in price. The "traditional" price was around 3,200 euros. Then, suddenly, the price jumped to 4,500 euros or so, due to manufacture and special glasses, I suppose. I expect the new lens to replicate the former "equilibrium" price of 3,200 euros (more or less).

[marknorton]

Such a lens would certainly be interesting but it's unlikely to be the same size as the f1.4 or anything like it. To a first approximation, the front lens element needs to be around 50mm diameter and the filter diameter has to be large enough to prevent vignetting - the current Noctilux uses a 60mm filter. The f1.4 lens uses a 46mm filter.

At the back of the lens, the M mount diameter is a limiting factor and the current Noctilux mount is full of glass. If Leica want to build in close focus correction, such as the f1.4 lens has, this is going to make the mount complex and will increase the diameter of the lens.

Still, the current Noctilux with its puny plastic hood places an upper limit on the size. Any larger and the rangefinder patch is blinded by the lens getting in the way which has so far frustrated my attempts to replace said hood with something better.

I understand why Leica feel the need to replace this iconic lens and we'll see what else they will bring to the Photokina party. I'm a big fan of the Tri-Elmar when travelling and I would have liked them to do something in that direction, a Tri-Elmarit or Bi-Summicron, for example.

[thrid]

Originally Posted by SJP

So what is a reasonable price for a Noctilux?

If they set it at 1000 euros or so no-one would take it seriously (as a Leica).

If they priced it at 1000 euro they couldn't make enough of them. Personally I don't judge gear on it's price.

If it is around 2500 - 3000 euro then why buy a Summilux?

So it has to be in the 4000-5000 euro ballpark. This is $6286 to $7858 at today's conversion rate (add $100 for a cigar box to put it in).

I recall buying microscope objectives that cost about $5000 - $7000 so considering the difference in size & complexity this sounds about right.

That's a good strategy for Leica to go out of business. Shelling out 4000-5000 euros for a lens may be ok, if you are independently wealthy, but it's a lousy way to run a business if you are trying to move boxes. Leica needs to lower the cost of their goods across the board, not increase them. They have already priced themselves out of the market for all, but a small percentage of people.

[Saloti]

Originally Posted by rosuna

The Noctilux experienced a strong increase in price. The "traditional" price was around 3,200 euros. Then, suddenly, the price jumped to 4,500 euros or so, due to manufacture and special glasses, I suppose. I expect the new lens to replicate the former "equilibrium" price of 3,200 euros (more or less).

At least with regard to my source, the dealer, you are dreaming. However, I agree
to Thrid that Leica will have to take major decisions in the near future.

If they continue their pricing in a "digital" world, which they - thanks god - entered,
they will face major, major problems. They will never succeed in penetrating new
markets, which they desperately need.

Leica is still following post-war cost-plus approaches, since decades were are in a
world where consumers and competitors set price levels, the world has become a
price less environment.

[wizard]

Originally Posted by Saloti

... since decades were are in a
world where consumers and competitors set price levels, the world has become a price less environment.

Maybe, just maybe we consumers have to (re)learn that a certain quality demands a certain price? In fact, hasn't it always been like that? Many of todays consumers are simply not educated enough to realize the level of quality they get when buying a product, instead they mistake a multitude of often useless features for quality. Leica, as some other makers of different products all over the world, have always tried to sell what THEY believe is quality. So far they have succeeded, and I see no reason why they shouldn't continue to do so. It is not the mass market they are after.

Cheers,

Andy

[Saloti]

I can follow you. But - nobody talks about mass market. We are
talking about the width of the very, very top of the market....

[Dan States]

Originally Posted by rosuna

The Noctilux experienced a strong increase in price. The "traditional" price was around 3,200 euros. Then, suddenly, the price jumped to 4,500 euros or so, due to manufacture and special glasses, I suppose. I expect the new lens to replicate the former "equilibrium" price of 3,200 euros (more or less).

In 2002 I paid $1800 new from Photovillage. They are made in Canada so the monetary conversion to the dollar was not the driving issue in the price. In fact, around 3 years ago Leica realized that they could sell the lens for ever increasing prices to ever fewer but richer clients.

A new lens is long overdue because digital capture and 100% viewing on a monitor have made the old lens look pretty bad. Think of how much time and money Leica has spent adjusting and readjusting perfectly good M8 bodies because users could not accept the focus shift inherent in the Noct and several other high speed lenses.

[stunsworth]

Who says a new Noctilux would be 50mm? What about a 35mm .95 version? May keep that front element managable too.

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by NB23

I was banned from RFF because a jewish guy thought I was racist, a thing I am not.

And since I do not plan to talk about Race and politics over here, I shall not be banned.

Indeed. We have had our run-ins on RFF, but banning was not something that was needed imo.It is all part of the game. Welcome

[NB23]

Hi there Jaapv!

[thrid]

Originally Posted by wizard

Maybe, just maybe we consumers have to (re)learn that a certain quality demands a certain price? In fact, hasn't it always been like that? Many of todays consumers are simply not educated enough to realize the level of quality they get when buying a product, instead they mistake a multitude of often useless features for quality. Leica, as some other makers of different products all over the world, have always tried to sell what THEY believe is quality.

I agree that quality has something to do with price. The materials that are used in the manufacture of a Noct are not cheap. They also do not sell a lot of them, so they do not have the scale of economy on their side (but they woudl sell more if it was cheaper).

But Leica has gone off the rails even if you take all of the above in to consideration. They have priced themselves out of the market and above the cost of materials etc involved in the manufature of their goods.

So far they have succeeded, and I see no reason why they shouldn't continue to do so. It is not the mass market they are after.
Cheers,
Andy

Well, if you take in to account that they have been on the verge of going out of business for the past 20 years and almost ate it for good it last year, I would have to say that their business model is not working out all that well.

Leica needs to revamp the way they produce their goods.

The new Summarit lenses are a perfect example of how to do this. By sharing components across several lenses they can lower costs, while maintaining quality. Currently pretty much all other Leica lenses are one off designs. They don't share any components, which drives up costs in regards to everything from training people to assemble and service the lenses to stock piling spare parts etc.

It's a ridiculous situation and it boggles the mind that no one over there has cut through this crap and straightened this out, after all of this time. Leica better get their act together and they better do it fast. The world economy is going to get very ugly in the enxt few years and they need to get lean and mean to survive.

[jaapv]

And considering the CV Nokton 1.2/35. Maybe not in the quality stratosphere like the Noctilux, but high-class imaging, pleasing aberrations as well, DOF and subject isolation in the same order albeit less extreme, very characterful and at a price of 600$, well it takes some convincing for an occasional Noctilux user that he needs to shell out 10 times that amount....

[offshore]

Leica are building a new industrial complex and their suppliers will be in the same complex. This is supposed to cut costs and speed up production. The Noct lens elements took 18 days to cool properly before they could be finished for assembly. I don't know if they've figured out a way to speed up that process but if they are going to come out with a rumored 0.95 the glass elements will be larger and it would seem take even longer to prepare. If a 0.95 is in the offing, unless Leica has figured out a way to cut material and assembly costs it would seem that the price would exceed the prior Noct. My guess would be in the $7,000 range.

[jaapv]

It is virtually certain that there will be a new Noctilux. Mr. Daniel, although saying so straight out that there will be a new one, made it clear that Leica is determined to hang on to the prestige this icon brings.

[rosuna]

It is not prestige alone. The Noctilux is a fantastic tool. Very expensive and big, but it brings a signature you cannot find in any other lens.

The M system must offer other kind of tools as well. Small, more affordable lenses (expanding the Summarit line), and more luminous wide-angle lenses. But I am sure they are working on it.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by offshore

The Noct lens elements took 18 days to cool properly before they could be finished for assembly.

The new one would only take 18 days to cool off??? if I remember correctly, the old one would take more than a year.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by marknorton

a Tri-Elmarit or Bi-Summicron, for example.

I'd like to second Mark on this one ... a 21-35 at f/2.8 constant aperture or variable between 2.8-3.5 should be very cool.