Is RF in danger?

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by lct

I agree but the viewfinder would remain an optical one, nothing to do with an EVF, right?

Correct, an EVF can only show what the lens/sensor can record. With an optical viewfinder you are able to design a system to view beyond that boundry.

[JBA]

Originally Posted by zapp

Erwin Puts speaks for himself and his opinion is not the law.
The whole concept of SLR and RF is basically outdated as soon as a digital viewfinder really works. No need for frame lines in an RF camera, no need for flipping mirrors as in SLR cameras. It may take a couple more years for a nice digital viewfinder solution, but it would make any old style viewfinder obsolete.

As long as your battery power lasts.

[JBA]

Originally Posted by stunsworth

I understand what you are saying LCT, and it's difficult to imagine a EVF providing the same view as an existing M viewfinder. However, electronic _framelines_ with perhaps a variable magnification optical viewfinder is something totally different, and could be very useful. Whether it's possible to make such a beast at all, or at a sensible price, is another matter.

In other words, an optical zoom viewfinder that operates in conjunction with the bright framelines and shows the framelines for any lens at the same magnification as the 50 on a film rangefinder (i.e. with ample space outside the framlines).

[zernikepolynom]

There are some situations, where a Rangefinder seems to be an even better choice for sports photography. Taken a the Hockenheim Ring last weekend. The people in our party equpped with SLRs were struggling to keep track of the objects.

[zernikepolynom]

...actually this is the fast young man, I was looking for...

Cropped, I really need a 75mm or 90mm...

[lct]

Originally Posted by zernikepolynom

...The people in our party equpped with SLRs were struggling to keep track of the objects.

Too 'veloce' perhaps?

[darkstar2004]

Originally Posted by Iron Flatline

Rangefinders are harder to use than SLRs. It's that simple. My mom or my wife (and frankly, virtually none of my friends) are capable of picking up my R-D1 or my M8 and get a shot. With an SLR, chances are they can.

Is RF Photography in danger of becoming obsolete? It is obsolete already. Marketing it along the lines of image quality is a bad idea. If they're going to bother to make a case at all, it will have to be that the process is somehow more fun, more connected...

"Obsolete" forms of imagemaking seem to refuse to die. Look at view camera photography as an example.

These "obsolete" cameras are being made by Arca-Swiss, Ebony, Fotoman, Canham, Linkof, Shen-Hao, Tachihara, Toho, Toyo, Walker, Wisner, Lotus, Phillips, Gandolfi and Osaka - fifteen makers of these "obsolete" cameras by my count.

Add to that the dozens of lenses and scores of sheet films that are being produced by various companies for these "obsolete" cameras. Now consider that this is not a government sponsored endeavor that can operate for decades awash in red ink - these companies must turn a profit or at least break even to keep making view cameras, lenses and sheet film.

If the "obsolete" view camera can survive - and thrive - in the era of digital hysteria, how can Leica not do so? [ I know - "poor decision making," which is what concerns me ]

Should Leica and Leica lovers be concerned? Yes.
Must Leica diversify? Yes.
Must Leica make and sell a digital R system camera? Yes (it's part of that "diversification" thing).
Must Herr Kaufmann make wise decisions? YES.
Is the death of the Leica M system inevitable? No.

Digital is not the Borg collective. Resistance is not futile.

That having been said, I'm hoping to be able to add one new Leica lens to my kit each year. If enough people do this, the Leica M system's survival will be all but a done deal.

IMHO, we gotta do our part. If you love Leica M photography, vote with your dollars/euros/yen/rubles/rupees/yang.

[kenneth]

It begs the question- does it matter?

[darkstar2004]

Originally Posted by kenneth

It begs the question- does it matter?

Um, yeah, it does.

I happen to like film & mechanical cameras, along with a few score million others walking the face of this planet...

[JBA]

How many rangefinders does the market bear at present?

Leica, Zeiss and Voigtlaender each offer several models.

Cosina-Voiglaender also makes LTM lenses. According to the "rangefinder is doomed" logic, this move should have been business suicide.

I became a new Leica rangefinder user last fall, and I rather doubt I'm the only one in the world to enter the market since then.

[Kent10D]

Originally Posted by darkstar2004

These "obsolete" cameras are being made by Arca-Swiss, Ebony, Fotoman, Canham, Linkof, Shen-Hao, Tachihara, Toho, Toyo, Walker, Wisner, Lotus, Phillips, Gandolfi and Osaka - fifteen makers of these "obsolete" cameras by my count.

tut tut ... you forgot Cambo, Wista, Horseman, Chamonix, and (shame, shame) Linhof (or is that what you meant by "Linkof"?).

Actually, I think Osaka is made by Tachihara, but there are still a whole bunch of makers that seem to be actually selling those obsolete cameras.

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by Kent10D

tut tut ... you forgot Cambo, Wista, Horseman, Chamonix, and (shame, shame) Linhof (or is that what you meant by "Linkof"?).

Actually, I think Osaka is made by Tachihara, but there are still a whole bunch of makers that seem to be actually selling those obsolete cameras.

There is nothing obsolete about view cameras as they still can do things that can't be achieved with anything else. Especially high resolution and also extreme movements with wide lenses and very shallow depth of field on a specific angled plane. But their use is way down so I doubt many of those manufacturers can remain viable. There is a lot of used LF gear in the marketplace. Linhof, Cambo, Sinar and others make new smaler view cameras targetting MF digital backs.

I think rangefinders will survive but will have to be capable of delivering comparable quality and features as SLRs or they will be obsolete.

[Kent10D]

Alan,

I recently read somewhere that the number of view camera manufacturers (or maybe it's just brands) has actually increased over the past ten years. By quite a margin. Their use is definitely down for commercial work, but it seems to be up for the fine art and hobby LF shooters. The smaller makers like Chamonix aren't able to keep up with orders. Don't know if it's a sustainable trend, but there it is.

Cheers,

Oh, and P.S: just in case you thought I actually consider view cameras obsolete, I don't. I own two of the things myself.

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by darkstar2004

Um, yeah, it does.

I happen to like film & mechanical cameras, along with a few score million others walking the face of this planet...

But you've got one so what is the problem?

[jimmy pro]

Originally Posted by AlanG

I think rangefinders will survive but will have to be capable of delivering comparable quality and features as SLRs or they will be obsolete.

I agree...well, sort of. I think rangefinders are already obsolete but they will survive. Leica sold 12K of the M8's and even on this forum there are more people who seem to like the status quo then want a newfangled gizmo-packed replacement. Eventually Leica's current fans will be to old or to dead to buy cameras but for now I think Leica figures that "a bird in the hand" so to speak, and frankly I think there right.

[leicajh]

Originally Posted by jimmy pro

I won't go so far as to say RF is in danger, but Leica definately might be. Let's face it, most of Leica's buyers aren't pro's, so a new camera is a luxury (well, maybe for some it's an obsessive compulsion, but for the majority....). With almost all costs of living rising in a dominoe affect on account of gas prices, and with lots of jobs--including white-collar, not just grunt labor--being lost, and shifting to China and India, it's possible more than a few guys are gonna think twice about plopping down another six or more grand on the next Leica that comes out. And I'm just talking the younger guys who are still working. The big chunk of Leica's customers that are retired, it really depends on how well set they are. If there rich enough then it won't matter, but if inflation threatens to put a crimp in there retirement lifestyle, then even some guys can't say no to a new Leica thereselves, I bet a few of there wives will say it.

Agreed! jh

[stunsworth]

For most people Leicas are like olives, something you only get to enjoy as you get older. Provided Leica can keep attracting older people to their cameras then there isn't a problem. Of course I'd like younger people to enjoy them as well.

[jimmy pro]

Originally Posted by stunsworth

For most people Leicas are like olives, something you only get to enjoy as you get older.

I would of said "prunes".

[mooky]

Erwin Puts has too much time on his hands........blah, blah, blah,,,,,,,,

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by jimmy pro

I would of said "prunes".

Rice pudding with prunes was a staple dessert when I was at school.

There's a town in France (Agen?) famous for its prunes. I stayed there once and the post meal coffee arrived with a free prune.