Is RF in danger?

[ho_co]

luigi, Dedalus--
When I worked for Leitz, what a dealer had to stock was largely in the hands of the sales rep. The company had a minimum-stock policy, but there was a great deal of leeway.

My guess is that the same holds today. Depending on the economy, the dealer's attitude, the size of the dealership, the distance to the nearest active dealership, the sales trends in the rest of the rep's territory, the viewpoint of her supervisor, the size of the town etc, the policy will likely vary.

[brianv]

I started using a Rangefinder in 1969, when I was 11 years old.

By the age of 6, my daughter (now 10), had used the Retina IIIS, Nikon SP, and Leica M3.

[luigi bertolotti]

Originally Posted by brianv

I started using a Rangefinder in 1969, when I was 11 years old.

By the age of 6, my daughter (now 10), had used the Retina IIIS, Nikon SP, and Leica M3.

OK, a pedigree I can't match... ... but makes me think that I can still hope for my eldest daughter... let me do some computations... I started with RF at 19 (Zorky !)... now she's 14 and used Rollei 35, Leica CL and now Lumix (refused Super Ikonta... ) ... a shift of 8 year, about, true, but lot of life still in front...

[someonenameddavid]

I think Leitz may stay alive by proclaiming "forward compatibility" I, for one would not shell out US$5000 for an M8 with 10MP knowing that it was going to be obsolete within 2 years; but If Solms declared a forward compatibility philosophy wherein upgrades to the sensor would be available, then the idea becomes palatable... 50 MP M8 anyone?

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by Iron Flatline

Rangefinders are harder to use than SLRs. It's that simple.....

This would be heresy on the M8 Forum; the currently configured traditional 'M' viewfinder is an anachronism to most people wanting to interchange focal length lenses on a camera. The 'rangefinder' aspect of 'M' cameras is not the issue, it's the framing in the viewfinder by broken lines, the intrusive paired frame-lines, the mass of wasted space around the frame with anything longer than a 28-mm lens, the absurd inaccuracy caused by frame-lines set to closest focus distance. Some of these aspects are loved by other M8 owners, but not by me, and I suspect these design 'qualities' are extremely alienating to generations of photographers used to zoom lens convenience.

My private wish was for Leica to drop the 'R' line [apologies to those who would be affected], and produce a contemporary viewfinder with some limited zoom capability for easier framing upwards of 28-mm, perhaps electronic frame-lines as discussed elsewhere, if possible a menu option to make opaque the area outside of the frame-lines, and a built in dioptre adjustment for the viewfinder. With resources freed from former 'R' commitments. A 'modern' version viewfinder could be developed in tandem with the 'traditional' option to give a customer choice.

Of course I don't think any of the above is going to happen, and the 'M' will struggle to attract the larger market they need. A lot around here are expecting a new 'R' line so I expect the resources of the company will again be stretched too thinly to give the 'M' the boost I think it needs.

The rangefinder camera as in the M8 configuration is in danger, but I actually think the lens design advantages for rangefinder cameras and the cameras' and lenses scale advantages have enormous potential for a greater popularity. I am very optimistic about the potential, whether Leica will grab that challenge is another matter.

................. Chris

[gravastar]

Originally Posted by ChrisC

.......................... perhaps electronic frame-lines as discussed elsewhere, if possible a menu option to make opaque the area outside of the frame-lines, and a built in dioptre adjustment for the viewfinder........... ................. Chris

I hope Leica are reading this. I think a semi opaque area outside of the current frame-line would be an excellent idea. That could be achieved by a transmissive LCD panel. You could still see what was happening outside the frame but concentrate your attention to inside the frame. The opacity could be reduced for low light levels.

Bob.

[offshore]

Originally Posted by luigi bertolotti

Uhm... just an observation about the evidenced above... the Leica authorized dealer in my town told me the inverse... he complained some months ago (when I bought my Summarit 75...) that to maintain his status he had to stock also a number of R gear, which he was dubious to be able to sell... those, I think, are specific policies of national distributors : in Italy, and most other countries, private companies that in turn have, I think, to struggle with Leica distribution rules... maybe is significant that my dealer's complain dates BEFORE the famed Mr. Lee firing...

Anyway my thought is that Leica MUST be in the DSLR market, and hope for them they'll do it the right way... the RF market, at the best, shall continue to be a niche too small to allow a company to survive in the era of digital.

This must vary from dealer to dealer as the store I work at is an authorized dealer and we do not stock any R equipment.

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by jimmy pro

I won't go so far as to say RF is in danger, but Leica definately might be. Let's face it, most of Leica's buyers aren't pro's, so a new camera is a luxury (well, maybe for some it's an obsessive compulsion, but for the majority....). With almost all costs of living rising in a dominoe affect on account of gas prices, and with lots of jobs--including white-collar, not just grunt labor--being lost, and shifting to China and India, it's possible more than a few guys are gonna think twice about plopping down another six or more grand on the next Leica that comes out.

Hmmm, there are an awful lot of Chinese, Russian and Indian people coming into affluence - the market will shift, brands with an old high-class image are highly sought after. Champagne prices have nearly doubled for the premium brands because of demand from Russia and China, BWM is shipping cars into China as fast as they can . Leica will pick up there as well.
It is a matter of shifting markets.

[rob_x2004]

Chris you can have all that right now, buy an SLR.
Bob you can buy templates to cover all those useless spare keys on the piano when you arent palying rachmaninoff.
New digital keyboard is coming out rationalising the alphabet for ten keys too.

[kdemas]

Frankly since the onslaught of the SLR, beginning with the Nikon F, the rangefinder has been a niche product and will continue to be. That, my friends, does not mean the company is going down or that the future can not be bright with excellent products.

Lets step away from the auto industry a moment and look at the car industry. BMW, Ferrari and many other do not hold a candle to the sales of Toyota, GM, Ford and others. Are they dead, is there no future?

Of course there is, many of them are flourishing, and like the car industry Leica needs to continue to find, cultivate and expand its niche markets to form a solid foundation for business. Although we would love to see every Mom and Dad carrying a Leica at Disneyland or at a Soccer game it's not going to happen, there are cheaper and better solutions, in some cases, for those activities. And that's OK

Leica needs to be BMW... identify a niche, target it with laser focus and deliver the finest product they can muster to meet that demand. I have every confidence that with some intelligent management, creative marketing and the right products Leica can survive and flourish in the years to come.

Kent

ps- Hmmmmm.... I also thought Contax would come out with an ND2 and rule the upper end, what do I know ;-)

[offshore]

Originally Posted by jimmy pro

I won't go so far as to say RF is in danger, but Leica definately might be. Let's face it, most of Leica's buyers aren't pro's, so a new camera is a luxury (well, maybe for some it's an obsessive compulsion, but for the majority....). With almost all costs of living rising in a dominoe affect on account of gas prices, and with lots of jobs--including white-collar, not just grunt labor--being lost, and shifting to China and India, it's possible more than a few guys are gonna think twice about plopping down another six or more grand on the next Leica that comes out. And I'm just talking the younger guys who are still working. The big chunk of Leica's customers that are retired, it really depends on how well set they are. If there rich enough then it won't matter, but if inflation threatens to put a crimp in there retirement lifestyle, then even some guys can't say no to a new Leica thereselves, I bet a few of there wives will say it.

Uh, Leica is rangefinder (no offense to the Cosina and Epson shooters) and all the folks I've sold Leica to are not retired, they are upward middle class. Maybe you could share the source of your knowledge about Leica belonging to the retired. Oh, and I own an M8 and am not retired and don't plan on being.

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by kdemas

Frankly since the onslaught of the SLR, beginning with the Nikon F, the rangefinder has been a niche product and will continue to be. That, my friends, does not mean the company is going down or that the future can not be bright with excellent products.

Lets step away from the auto industry a moment and look at the car industry. BMW, Ferrari and many other do not hold a candle to the sales of Toyota, GM, Ford and others. Are they dead, is there no future?

Of course there is, many of them are flourishing, and like the car industry Leica needs to continue to find, cultivate and expand its niche markets to form a solid foundation for business. Although we would love to see every Mom and Dad carrying a Leica at Disneyland or at a Soccer game it's not going to happen, there are cheaper and better solutions, in some cases, for those activities. And that's OK

Leica needs to be BMW... identify a niche, target it with laser focus and deliver the finest product they can muster to meet that demand. I have every confidence that with some intelligent management, creative marketing and the right products Leica can survive and flourish in the years to come.

Kent

ps- Hmmmmm.... I also thought Contax would come out with an ND2 and rule the upper end, what do I know ;-)

Ferrari - fine, but BMW a niche manufacturer

[lct]

Originally Posted by gravastar

I hope Leica are reading this. I think a semi opaque area outside of the current frame-line would be an excellent idea...

What's the point of using a rangefinder if one cannot view outside the frame lines?

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by rob_x2004

Chris you can have all that right now, buy an SLR.

I tried to make a constructive criticism in a thread titled 'is RF in danger'. My criticism is of the viewfinder, as configured in the M8, it most definitely was not a criticism of rangefinder-type cameras which I feel have enormous potential for a larger market. You would know that had you read my post with care.

I have a DSLR. I have an M8; with a viewfinder which I think is anachronistic, and poorly serves any lens other than one of 28 mm. I now only use a 28 mm lens on my M8, a better viewfinder framing would make the camera usable by me with longer focal lengths. My contention is that the M8 viewfinder specifically needs modernising, so it could be offered as an alternative to the current one; and [I contend] make Leica M more attractive to first time buyers.

I have owned and used rangefinder cameras with serious intent for nearly 30 years [ Plaubel Makina, Fuji 6x9, Mamiya 7s, Koni Omega, Fuji 6x4.5], my M8 is my first Leica and I offer my criticism as an actual customer, not an armchair wind-up merchant.

I began my original post with the suggestion that I was in danger of heresy. Absurdly, I began that post on the defensive. I have learned in the M8 forum that the common reply to people who offer criticism of the M8 is that they should go and buy a DSLR. As an insidious form of censorship the ploy usually works; I mean - what is the point of offering an alternative point of view if the level of engagement with it is to be told to go and get a DSLR?

The fact remains that Leica need a more solid business. The question remains; what would make the 'M' line more attractive [I have no interest in the 'R']? If these forums cannot cope with discussion they become irrelevant.

................ Chris

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by lct

What's the point of using a rangefinder if one cannot view outside the frame lines?

Exactly. Using a 28/35mm on the M8 gives an excellent view on the world IMHO. More like like looking at the scene, rather than viewing it from the end of a tunnel.

[jimmy pro]

Originally Posted by offshore

Uh, Leica is rangefinder (no offense to the Cosina and Epson shooters) and all the folks I've sold Leica to are not retired, they are upward middle class. Maybe you could share the source of your knowledge about Leica belonging to the retired. Oh, and I own an M8 and am not retired and don't plan on being.

Once again you twist what I say for the express purpose of starting another arguement. I'm not gonna take your bait again. Most of the major Leica dealers in the US are here in this area (well, accrost the river in NYC to be exact) and most of the M8's they've sold have been to older gents. Just ask them. Sure there are guy's from 20's to 50's who bought them. And there are prolly guys in there 80's who are still working, even if it's just collecting dividends and bonuses from the company there kid now runs. You can manipulate statistics anyway you want. Bottom line, working or retired, young or old, if the US (if not the western world) economy stays in the crapper it's gonna have some affect on the next over-$5000 Leica, which was the main thing of my point.

[zernikepolynom]

Originally Posted by stunsworth

Exactly. Using a 28/35mm on the M8 gives an excellent view on the world IMHO. More like like looking at the scene, rather than viewing it from the end of a tunnel.

This is one of the reasons why I personally prefer a rangefinder (or a focusing screen) over a SLR viewfinder. I have the impression I tend to see 'through' the SLR viewfinder, thereby ignoring disturbing elements, but 'at' the scenery in the viewfinder.

My personal favourite lens for the M8 is the 50mm (maybe because I'm wearing specs), where the 24mm seems to be almost like a SLR viewfinder again, albeit a very bright and clear one. If Leica converted the RF to a 'zoom', my concern would be to lose this brilliant view. I was never too much impressed with the viewfinder of the Contax G1/G2, I almost bought one but got discouraged by it's unimpressive viewfinder.

Stefan

[zapp]

Erwin Puts speaks for himself and his opinion is not the law.
The whole concept of SLR and RF is basically outdated as soon as a digital viewfinder really works. No need for frame lines in an RF camera, no need for flipping mirrors as in SLR cameras. It may take a couple more years for a nice digital viewfinder solution, but it would make any old style viewfinder obsolete.

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by zernikepolynom

My personal favourite lens for the M8 is the 50mm (maybe because I'm wearing specs), ...

I remember when I bought my first M, a used M2, and looked at the 50mm framelines. My first reaction was that there was all this wasted space in the viewfinder. After using the camera for a while I realised that it wasn't wasted space at all, but one of the advantages of a rangefinder camera over an SLR. Personally I hope we always have framelines, I wouldn't want the subject to totally fill the viewfinder as happens with an SLR. Electronic framelines whose size and position varied according to the focussing distance would be perfect.

[lct]

Originally Posted by zapp

...It may take a couple more years for a nice digital viewfinder solution, but it would make any old style viewfinder obsolete.

Could this EVF display a 50mm FoV with all lenses?
Could it allow me to view outside the frame lines?
Could it give me the feeling that i 'see' the world instead of a TV set?