Leica news

[lars_bergquist]

Re: Speculation about a digital CL. —The CL, which BTW didn't sell very well, was (a) compact, and (b) less expensive. What made it compact was a non-standard, vertically running shutter – the classical Leica shutter takes up most of the room in the body. What is there in the M8 that can be shrunk? Nothing drastic can be done. So my bet is that any new model won't be more compact than the M8 – which is of course very compact, compared to the light anti-tank SLRs we see today.

What made the CL less expensive was mainly a simplified rangefinder. It had a short base and frames for only three focal lengths, 40, 50 and 90mm. Similarly, an optomechanical rangefinder can be simplified (28, 35 and 75mm?) but only with a reduction of useability probably far greater than the reduction of the price. It is possible that a laser-based RF with a LED readout in the finder can be designed, but I doubt that the price will be much reduced.

Remains lower-grade construction. Plastic, anyone? That may be realistic at the factory end – but can you sell it?

The old man from the Age of Brass

[lct]

Originally Posted by lars_bergquist

Re: Speculation about a digital CL. —The CL, which BTW didn't sell very well...

It did sell very well AFAIK. Could even have saved Leica according to our friend Howard:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...7-post134.html

[lct]

Originally Posted by Saloti

...a CL for 1.500 with Summarits, this makes a lot of sense...

Would be great for sure but 1500 EUR is the price of an brand new R-D1 in HK right now. Adding to this shipping, insurance, VAT and other taxes makes at least 1800 EUR or 2800 USD (or 1400 GBP) to get such a body which was sold for 3000 EUR in Europe 4 years ago.
It was probably overpriced then but 2000 EUR seems to be the limit for, say, a Cosina body, which brings us to about 3000 EUR at least for a German made Leica.
Now the CL was made in Japan, so perhaps the digital CL could be made in Asia as well...

[spylaw4]

Originally Posted by lct

<snip>
Now the CL was made in Japan, so perhaps the digital CL could be made in Asia as well...

IMHO the only real way to cut the cost is to use cheaper labour which is likely to be one of the major manufacturing overheads.

Of course one might need a somewhat higher level of QC, and there could be increased shipping costs which might depend on how finished units are distributed, but in all probability there could be substantial savings.

Apple seem to get on quite well with Asian manufacturers - why not Leica for the more modest model(s)?

[lct]

Originally Posted by spylaw4

...Of course one might need a somewhat higher level of QC...

Agree. Problem is who is capable to build a rangefinder in Asia aside from Cosina? Both my Cosina made R-D1 and R-D1s RFs had to be adjusted by DIY or by Epson. Now the Zeiss Ikon body is made by Cosina as well and seems to be better but i have no experience of it.

[thrid]

Originally Posted by offshore

In the good old days (5 years ago) reps would come around a month or more in advance and tell us about new equipment and train us to sell it. This gave us time to hype it, presell it and generally build up enthusiasm for it. Along came non-disclosure statements, immediate termination and the end to any truly reliable information regarding new equipment. Most reps etc....

Good post.

[thrid]

Originally Posted by Saloti

A CL for 1.500 with Summarits, this makes a lot of sense, I agree. Offering a new M8 or M9 at this stage would allow Leica to penetrate new markets, however, new markets is exactly what Leica needs.

Is that a Leica version of the RD-1 that I smell in the air?

Seriously, I think the only way Leica can get the price of a CL-D down to or below $2000 is if the camera is made of a mixture of plastic and metal (like most cameras today and this isn't a bad thing) and is made in Asia. Maybe they can have the parts made in Asia and assemble it in Portugal or Germany. But unless Leica performs a minor miracle of efficient assembly line production, I don't know how they could pull off that price point with a body that is made in Germany.

Regardless, I am very curious to see what will show up at Photokina. I would be very tempted by a digital CL-D, at the right price.

[thrid]

Originally Posted by lars_bergquist

Re: Speculation about a digital CL. —The CL, which BTW didn't sell very well, was (a) compact, and (b) less expensive.

Actually the CL did sell very well. In fact by Leica standards it sold like hot cakes (60,000 units in 2-3 years) and almost killed the M line, that was already badly battered by the Nikon F etc...

[thrid]

Originally Posted by lct

Agree. Problem is who is capable to build a rangefinder in Asia aside from Cosina? Both my Cosina made R-D1 and R-D1s RFs had to be adjusted by DIY or by Epson. Now the Zeiss Ikon body is made by Cosina as well and seems to be better but i have no experience of it.

Maybe Leica could have the body made in Asia and add the RF unit in Germany...

[veraikon]

A CL for 1.500

Mr. Kaufmann anounced the CLd at about 2000€ (perhaps 1999€ ) (Interview at LFI)

[lct]

Originally Posted by veraikon

Mr. Kaufmann anounced the CLd at about 2000€ (perhaps 1999€ ) (Interview at LFI)

Would you have a link to this?

[veraikon]

=>
LFI International

LFI: Aber fehlt nicht auch der günstige Einstieg ins M-System?

Kaufmann: Ich würde hier das Wort „noch“ hinzufügen. Ich habe aber nicht
gesagt: „Photokina 2008“, denn wir haben nur eine begrenzte Entwicklungskapazität.
Wenn wir in der idealsten aller Welten leben würden, hätte ich natürlich
gern eine Einsteiger-M für 2000 Euro oder ein bisschen drunter. Aber leider
kann ich nicht einfach unsere Zulieferer anrufen, Vorschläge einsammeln und
einen Prototypen bauen, denn unsere Zulieferindustrie ist hier in Europa kaum
noch existent. Das ist eine Kompetenz, die wir erst wieder aufbauen müssen.

There is an english Version - but I didn´t found the link.

The last sentence shows to me that the CLd doesn´t come at Photokina (Fotochina) 08 but sometimes later (late 2009?). Perhaps we will see a design study - or just a model.

[offshore]

"I agree. That's why I've never called you a name. I've got a few choice one's that would definately apply, but I didn't post any. So, this is just more of your b.s."

I'm going to follow the moderators ruling here and invite you to take this private. My email address is posted with my bio information. Let's you and I continue this off forum.

[lct]

Originally Posted by veraikon

=> LFI International
There is an english Version - but I didn´t found the link.
The last sentence shows to me that the CLd doesn´t come at Photokina (Fotochina) 08 but sometimes later (late 2009?). Perhaps we will see a design study - or just a model.

Thank you, we've discussed this interview here already. See http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...-kaufmann.html.
According to Andreas Kaufmann:

..."In an ideal world I'd obviously want to offer an entry M for 2000 euros or less. Unfortunately, I can't just call our suppliers, gather suggestions and build a prototype. Our supplier industry barely exists in Europe anymore. It's an area of competence we have to rebuild."...

Hardly a promise that a possible digital CL would sell 2000 euros or less i'm afraid.

[Whitewillow321]

A digital CL at a more affordable price than an M sounds like good marketing sense. Price ..as much as quality..does factor into the purchasing decision. It makes perfect sense to source internationally. There is nothing wrong with quality plastic combined with a metal frame on a consumer level camera. The Leica marketing team should take a good hard look at their vastly larger and better selling competitors like Nikon and Canon.

I can buy a very compact Nikon D60 DSLR for CAN$729 with an 18-55 VR image stabilized kit lens in Canada. Can Leica compete with that combined level of quality and market pricing? I would pay the Leica brand "premium" if Leica put out a point and shoot or superzoom with a really uber quality imaging sensor (with its already uber quality lenses) See how Sigma put out a pocket camera with an SLR sensor. I am not saying that the SIGMA is a great camera because i have only read reviews on it but you can see an industry trend here IMHO.

By the way, I recently purchased a #14100 Leica table tripod with the ballhead. I am really impressed with the quality of the build and did not mind paying the Leica premium for it because i saw the quality in it. The price still has to make sense though.

[lct]

Originally Posted by Whitewillow321

...I can buy a very compact Nikon D60 DSLR for CAN$729 with an 18-55 VR image stabilized kit lens in Canada. Can Leica compete with that combined level of quality and market pricing?...

Panasonic no but it should. Leica no for the same reason as a Porsche cannot compete against a Volskwagen. PanaLeica is another story.

[flowminator]

Originally Posted by lct

Leica no for the same reason as a Porsche cannot compete against a Volskwagen. PanaLeica is another story.

You should put it the other way around
Porsche is doing quite well atm (in contrast to leica...) and can compete with regards to profitability. Btw, do you know that Porsche plans to buy the majority of VW shares

[lct]

Yes i do thanks, i'm almost gaga but i can still read
Would you suggest that VW and Porsche cars are in the same market?

[flowminator]

Originally Posted by lct

Would you suggest that VW and Porsche cars are in the same market?

Well... VW tried but failed miserably ...

[pelikan1931]

most people here with M8 have focus problem with their lens, and the M8 has the full rangefinder mechanism. what will happen with a CL rangefinder mechanism, with shorter baseline?

I hope Leica has found a soluction, perhaps by some electronic means, otherwise Solms will face another wave returnees for calibration.

on another front, the zeiss-cosina group has been very quiet on the camera front, although they have been aggressively expanding their lens line, which is now more comprehensive then the M lens, it would make sense to roll out a digital body, won't it?