A Change to Leica

[jackaubrey]

Hi, I am new to the Leica Forum and to the Leica system.

I am a long term Nikon SLR user (25 years) but in recent years I have found the direction of Nikon at odds with my own 'sense of values' and I feel the time may be right for a change of system.

I have found myself preferring my Nikon equipment of the early 1980's, e.g. Good solidly built SLR's with simple control layouts and manual focus lenses with decent build quality. Today I find Nikon are removing the apperture control rings from their new lenses and introducing dozens of buttons, controls and nested menus on their SLR's. Also the new lenses with the Vibration Reduction system are a lot bigger, heavier and cost more.

I want to move into Digital SLR photography but with a system that will be sympathetic to someone who:-

• Does not want to use an AF system
• Requires high quality lenses that are not made of plastic
• Requires a high quality, reliable camera body with simple controls
• Prefers fixed focal length lenses (perhaps with a single high quality zoom)
• Is not interested in shooting at 10fps
• Would like a company to offer improvements to existing camera models rather than keep introducing new models

I am coming to the conclusion that Leica may be only Company left who understand my needs. Of course I realise that they do not yet manufacture an fully fledged digital SLR (other than the R8 / R9 digital back), but I am prepared to wait a little while for this to appear.

My strategy will be to buy a selection of R lenses now and perhaps a film SLR with the intention of using the lenses on a future Leica digital SLR.

Any thoughts and suggestions from other like minded photographers will be appreciated, especially experienced Leica R users who know the top Lenses.

[cwf]

The arrival of the "R10" is much mooted here, both as to "if" and "when".

Even without that, or while awaiting it (depending on your point of view), your R lenses, like mine, need not sit on the shelf unused. Leica makes a (pricey) adapter for R lenses for the Digilux 3, and other 4/3 cameras (such as the Oly E-3), and other adapters, some iirc with focus confirmation, are available for Canon models.

Other, more knowledgeable members may chip in specifics or information about other options.

[dave_d]

I too was a Nikon user and had the exact feelings as you about my cameras. About 2 years ago I bought an R9 and started to purchase lenses and shooting film. A year later I purchased a DMR. I love my Leica and have no regrets for making the switch. I imagine the R10 will be more remarkable than the DMR when it arrives. I wished I would have switched to Leica years ago and don't think you will regret buying into the R system with anticipation of buying an R10.

[zuidema1]

Jack I have sent you a pm. R-lenses can be obtained at more than reasonable prices at the moment. Might be a good time to enter into the Leica-R system especially when autofocus is not important to you.
Maarten

[jackaubrey]

Well I have now started on the Leica journey as I purchased a Leica R 21-35mm ASPH Lens secondhand in Mint condition boxed with case for £800 (1000 EURO) which I think is a good price for this lens.

I was amazed at the light weight and compact size for a metal built lens (as opposed to Nikon plastic) but I do accept the small maximum apperture may restrict some uses.

It seemed a good place to start as it solves the problem of which wideangle to buy first and I have read some excellent reviews of this lens and seen some stunning pictures it has produced.

I have heard some excellent stories about the new (1998) version of the R 50mm F1.4 Summilux Lens, perhaps this will be next..........?

Regards

[budrichard]

I started with Nikon F's and still use Nikon analog cameras for my long lenses and purchased an FM3a about a year ago. I wanted to purchase the new 14-24 f2.8 Nikkor Zoom and discovered as you mentioned that it had no aperature ring rendering it useless for myself. I am looking for a used F6 in Mint condition until the price of the Full Frame Nikon drops with the introduction of a Prosumer model to use with this lens. When either of the two surface, I will purchase the lens.
I considered outfitting an R system but feel that the system is dead ended for a number of reasons, one of them being the price of any new equipment that may or may not be introduced and whether Leica can financially support any further developement of the R system. Your investments in lenses will far out weigh your investment in bodies which is why I continue to use Nikon equipment over the years. I concluded that any investment in R lenses was not sound financially.-Dick

[rosuna]

I am not sure about the compatiility level of the current R lenses and the future R10 body, so be careful.

The manual focus classic system is the M system. The R system will evolve to something different...

[Kaneo]

Hy jackaubrey,

The reason why I´m posting is because I had the same thoughts as you two years ago. To say it at the beginning, I switched to the M-System. Before I used classic Nikon Cameras (like FE2) with the famous Nikon fixed focal lenses (like the 105mm). But then I saw the negatives of a friend who was working with an old M3. Same B&W film, same processing, same location, but even the negatives looked completly different, much more contrast, much more "punch". And then the prints.... And my friend (now a pro) was much faster in focusing!
So I thought, ok, I`ll try this strange Leica M (even I don`t like the focusing and the viewfinder). I bought a used M6 and a 50mm Summicron, knowing that if I sell the system again (after testing it) I`ll get nearly the same price for it. A kind of "100 Euro Risk" for testing the system.
I think you can already guess what happend: I sold nearly all the Nikon stuff, keeping just one Body and the long lenses. And with the time I bought a 35mm and 90 mm Summicron. And now I do all my work with the M, landscape, portrait and everything between .

Ok, I`m talking about B&W and film, but I think the M8 is a great camera (just look at the pictures posted here at the photo- and foto- forum) and you don`t have to wait for a R10. And the M8 is perfect compatible with the wonderful older, pre-asph lenses. Have a Look:

Greetings from Vienna, Kaneo

[Whitewillow321]

I am new to this forum too Jackaubrey. I recently thought about buying a Dslr nikon too. Those things are turning into huge monsters. They are physically big and as you said "dozens of buttons and nested menus" and also "plastic". Why don't the Nikons and Canons just miniaturize and simplify their professional digital cameras?. If you watch a movie made in the 1980's, some rich guy is talking on his huge size "carphone" in his fancy car. Well, now we have much smaller and more capable "cellphones". In the 1990's people drove Ford SUVs with V-8 engines and now people want the Toyota compact with the hybrid engine. My point is..modern SLRS are just big overdesigned clumsy oafs. They also attract unwanted attention if you like to travel.

The big camera manufacturers need to simplify, get back to the important basics. Why couldn't Leica (or Nikon or Canon for that matter)..make a compact size..but fully professional (with manual and/or AF lenses and top quality sensor), stripped down, no BS, digital camera?

Leica could team up with the Japanese again. Make an affordable "Panaleica" or "Leicanon" or "Leikon" camera body half the size of a current DSLR. And who says it couldn't be a high quality digital compact without the whole pentamirror assembly and with an assortment of quality Leica lenses? Think M8 within a more affordable range with the choice of AF lenses.

[gwelland]

As a counterpoint I'd say that my Nikon DSLR has basically no extraneous buttons or functionality that I don't need/use in my photography. I'm not a great fan of AF although I do have a range of the latest nano zooms through to 200-400VR. For MF work I use the Zeiss ZF 25/2.8 and 35/2 which change the whole character of shooting with a DSLR to a much more analog level.

If Leica were to see the light and bring out compatible R lenses with full functionality in a similar manner to Zeiss, then I for one would buy them in a heartbeat.

[Lotw]

Originally Posted by jackaubrey

Hi, I am new to the Leica Forum and to the Leica system.


Any thoughts and suggestions from other like minded photographers will be appreciated, especially experienced Leica R users who know the top Lenses.

APO Elmarit 180: wonderful image-characteristics and very sympathetic, smooth handling.

[zlatkob]

Changing systems for a possible future camera with unknown specifications.... Aperture control is still there, just not on the lens. Manual focus is still there. High quality and reliability are still there. You can operate current DSLRs manually and ignore any buttons and menus you don't use; once your camera is set up to your needs, there is almost no need to go into any menus. Vibration reduction lenses do cost more, but they're not "a lot" bigger and heavier; just look at the various versions of the 80-200 lens: Nikon 80-200mm f/2.8 AF-D. You don't have to buy VR lenses (although they're amazing) and you don't have to buy plastic lenses.

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by Whitewillow321

I am new to this forum too Jackaubrey. I recently thought about buying a Dslr nikon too. Those things are turning into huge monsters. They are physically big and as you said "dozens of buttons and nested menus" and also "plastic". Why don't the Nikons and Canons just miniaturize and simplify their professional digital cameras?. If you watch a movie made in the 1980's, some rich guy is talking on his huge size "carphone" in his fancy car. Well, now we have much smaller and more capable "cellphones". In the 1990's people drove Ford SUVs with V-8 engines and now people want the Toyota compact with the hybrid engine. My point is..modern SLRS are just big overdesigned clumsy oafs. They also attract unwanted attention if you like to travel.

The big camera manufacturers need to simplify, get back to the important basics. Why couldn't Leica (or Nikon or Canon for that matter)..make a compact size..but fully professional (with manual and/or AF lenses and top quality sensor), stripped down, no BS, digital camera?

Leica could team up with the Japanese again. Make an affordable "Panaleica" or "Leicanon" or "Leikon" camera body half the size of a current DSLR. And who says it couldn't be a high quality digital compact without the whole pentamirror assembly and with an assortment of quality Leica lenses? Think M8 within a more affordable range with the choice of AF lenses.

Whilst I agree with the essence of your post, the M8 IS that camera...AF on the M series camera? That would kill the concept and drive the customer base away, probably into the high end P&S and Bridge segment.

[KM-25]

Originally Posted by Whitewillow321

I am new to this forum too Jackaubrey. I recently thought about buying a Dslr nikon too. Those things are turning into huge monsters. They are physically big and as you said "dozens of buttons and nested menus" and also "plastic". Why don't the Nikons and Canons just miniaturize and simplify their professional digital cameras?. If you watch a movie made in the 1980's, some rich guy is talking on his huge size "carphone" in his fancy car. Well, now we have much smaller and more capable "cellphones". In the 1990's people drove Ford SUVs with V-8 engines and now people want the Toyota compact with the hybrid engine. My point is..modern SLRS are just big overdesigned clumsy oafs. They also attract unwanted attention if you like to travel.

Handling and ergonomics for long days of shooting are what the D3 is for. I can get a lot more done for a longer amount of time with my D3 than I can with my M8 if I am on the clients dollar in a high priced helicopter rental for two hours.

I can also put the D3 in a EWA marine housing with a 17-35, Pocket Wizard and 32GB of CF cards ( 16GB in two slots ) all day on the Green River in Utah for a Outside magazine assignment on rafting and get the shot where the M8 will surely fail.

So the question would have to be why use a 24 inch pipe wrench on a 10mm lock nut...?

The answer: You don't, it is the wrong tool.

....Sounds like you bought the wrong tool for what you want to do with it, better luck next time, eh?

[jackaubrey]

Hi, to all of you and many thanks for your replies.

This has given me a lot more to think about regarding the M system. My main concerns are around the viewfinder composing / focusing and the lens restrictions.

For example, How can you view depth of field effects?

The idea of the 16-21mm Tri-Elmar Lens sounds great but you need a separate viewfinder for composing the shot as well as the camera viewfinder for focusing and metering. In addition you also need to re-set the menu every time you change the focal length with this lens on an M8!

I like the M concept of light weight, quiet operation and fast, quality lenses, but not the restrictions on any lens above 90mm - some more advice from people who have made the SLR to Rangefinder transition may help guide my path.

I am an amateur photographer who takes photos for my own pleasure, travel, family etc, so I am not under client pressure to deliver. A lightweight option with 3 or 4 top fast lenses is my preference as I am then likely to use the equipment.

Finally, I do not need rapid response gear as I do not shoot sport but I do need to take my shots in a reasonable time frame, i.e. I don't want to spend ages fiddling around with the camera so I lose the moment.

Any further advice will be appreciated.

Thanks

[offshore]

Originally Posted by jackaubrey

Hi, to all of you and many thanks for your replies.

This has given me a lot more to think about regarding the M system. My main concerns are around the viewfinder composing / focusing and the lens restrictions.

For example, How can you view depth of field effects?

The idea of the 16-21mm Tri-Elmar Lens sounds great but you need a separate viewfinder for composing the shot as well as the camera viewfinder for focusing and metering. In addition you also need to re-set the menu every time you change the focal length with this lens on an M8!

I like the M concept of light weight, quiet operation and fast, quality lenses, but not the restrictions on any lens above 90mm - some more advice from people who have made the SLR to Rangefinder transition may help guide my path.

I am an amateur photographer who takes photos for my own pleasure, travel, family etc, so I am not under client pressure to deliver. A lightweight option with 3 or 4 top fast lenses is my preference as I am then likely to use the equipment.

Finally, I do not need rapid response gear as I do not shoot sport but I do need to take my shots in a reasonable time frame, i.e. I don't want to spend ages fiddling around with the camera so I lose the moment.

Any further advice will be appreciated.

Thanks

Although it's a penny for my thoughts I'll put my two cents worth in and we'll figure out where the other penny went later. From what I'm reading it seems that you need to do some thinking about what you are going to photograph first before you decide on anything. For years (too many as of late) I've owned two systems, one, a rangefinder, for scenics and landscapes and the other an SLR for wildlife. I presently own the M8 with a few lenses that allow me a lightweight system to carry when I hike and take the S&L work. My DSLR system is also a light weight Olympus E510 with a 70-300 lens that gives me the telephoto range the Leica can't accomplish as well as image stabilization for that long lens (140-600 mm equivalent on the Oly). The lens restrictions you speak of with the M8 are only restrictions if you can't move yourself in a position to use the lenses available (12 mm to 135 mm at this point including the VC lenses available). Depth of field can be set on the Leica lenses by using the hyperfocal capabilities of the lenses and one of the benefits of digital is to be able to check your image for DOF, sharpness and etc. on the screen using the magnifyer. I'm not sure what you mean by re-setting the menu every time lenses are changed on the M8 you can either buy coded lenses, have older lenses coded, or ignore the registration altogether and turn it off in the menu. You might want to consider a "bridge" camera like the V-Lux 1 which has a 35-420 mm IS Leica lens, shoots in RAW format and is 10 MP's. I also own one and it is an very versatile alternative that I find myself taking almost everywhere. Since Leica are now offering $150 rebate on it it is an excellent value. My example of acquiring equipment to satisfy my photographic needs is only an example as your needs may be very different, however, I hope it helps.

[SJP]

For example, How can you view depth of field effects?

You can't except reading off the lens barrel - so this is a matter of experience. But infinitely easier to learn than in the good old film days with the M8 giving an instant(ish) image.

The idea of the 16-21mm Tri-Elmar Lens sounds great but you need a separate viewfinder for composing the shot as well as the camera viewfinder for focusing and metering. In addition you also need to re-set the menu every time you change the focal length with this lens on an M8!

Yep, some people seem to prefer other wide-angle lenses coded as a WATE. But I have no experience with this either way so further comments are useless.

I like the M concept of light weight, quiet operation and fast, quality lenses, but not the restrictions on any lens above 90mm - some more advice from people who have made the SLR to Rangefinder transition may help guide my path.

I would guess that most people here have both, not neccesarily DSLR's but SLR's. It seems that up to 135 mm is feasible with some practice and frameline guessing (= 180 mm equivalent on film/full frame).

I am an amateur photographer who takes photos for my own pleasure, travel, family etc, so I am not under client pressure to deliver. A lightweight option with 3 or 4 top fast lenses is my preference as I am then likely to use the equipment.

Since I have bought the M8 my enthusiasm for photography has increased dramatically, I would not worry about not using it enough.

Finally, I do not need rapid response gear as I do not shoot sport but I do need to take my shots in a reasonable time frame, i.e. I don't want to spend ages fiddling around with the camera so I lose the moment.

With practice you can do action shots, maybe not quite like an autofocus bazooka shaped thing but close enough. Use hyperfocal setting at f/8 or so & auto-exposure => point and shoot. In fact beacuse the M8 is not autofocus it may be faster than an autofocus DSLR. It has 0 shutter lag as far as I can detect/measure. See here these guys are fast and I mean fast, used MATE at 50mm.

[jackaubrey]

Hmmm....some good replies.

I do already use the DOF scales on my Nikkors as well as the stop down feature so with the M8 it is Lens DOF data + a check on the digital rear screen.

I had forgotten about the 1.3x factor on the M8 so a 90mm lens = 120mm. I had read somewhere that the 135mm lens was not compatible with the M8.

My photography is mainly city scapes & old buildings exteriors and interiors (in Italy), people (fairly close up), and landscapes. Also some wildlife but at close range, i.e. 30ft max.

I like the idea that the wideangle lenses are true wideangle (not retrofocus) as in the classic Hassleblad Biogon Lens but of course there is that 1.3x factor that limits the scope of the current M wideangle range.

I must admit the M8 is a handsome looking piece in chrome or black. I have ordered a few Leica books from Amazon to better inform myself of the system - I will keep you posted.

Regards