Disgusting?

[Gareth2]

I was prompted by the responses to the thread about the collectors' edition Nocti as well as some previous threads about a gold plated something or other.

I kept reading the word "disgusting".

Why is it disgusting to collect Leicas and not artwork for example? Personally, I find cameras intrinsically pleasing to the eye and touch (this is starting to sound kinky).

Additionally, Leica know they have a loyal group of collectors, as well as collectors who collect for investment purposes I guess. Why not exploit that market?

Come on, admit it. You know you like the feel of cameras and lenses.

I know I'd consider collecting if I knew a bit more about the subject and I had the money and I didn't treat my lenses like they were beer empties and i wasn't tempted to use them all the time and...........

[thompsonkirk]

There's more than one kind of Leica collecting, ranging from saving the rare survivors, to collecting cameras as if they were stamps, to manufacturing & marketing cameras aimed primarily at collectors rather than users. The levels are increasingly surreal, like moving from buying a house to investing in mortgages to dealing in mortgage derivatives.

The 'original' kind of collecting consisted of gathering the lesser-known or surviving pristine rarities (for example the olive-colored Luftwaffe ones). Fine with me, though I was less than amused when a friend bought store-type showcases to display his collection & stopped taking pictures with them.

Then Japanese collectors hit the market in the 80s with the idea of getting one-of-each, and Japanese dealers started bubble-wrapping Leicas on the assumption that they were to collect, not to be touched by greasy hands. If a weird American asked to unwrap it & try it, the transaction ended there. Dealers like Don Chatterton shipped many used Leicas abroad, & this kind of collecting sucked lots of good cameras out of the market. Pretty soon photography students couldn't afford one.

About the same time Leitz/Leica started making commemorative editions for all occasions, aiming them primarily at the collector's market. A definite change in business assumptions, probably good for profits. Nevertheless a bit surreal, if you thought cameras were mostly for taking pictures.

Finally the Hermes era, basically producing & marketing Leica jewelry as a gift item. Disgusting might not be an inappropriate term, especially for the 50 or so of those poor Nocti's that will spend their whole lives shut up in cigar humidors?

It's like when small town locals get a "Main Street Grant" to bolster a sagging economy. But often the businesses for locals can't afford the rent any longer & the main street turns into a row of interchangeable tourist restaurants & boutiques that have lost their local use & authenticity.

Maybe that's what producing wildly expensive gear for collecting consumers really amounts to: an inauthentic market for products that rarely enter the hands of 'native' photographic users. Cameras made explicitly to collect are not photographic tools, but some kind of 'virtual' commodity?

[stunsworth]

Because they're superb pieces of machinery and that machinery has been designed to take photographs not to sit on a shelf.

Just my opinion, it's a free world.

[elansprint72]

Originally Posted by stunsworth

Because they're superb pieces of machinery and that machinery has been designed to take photographs not to sit on a shelf.

Just my opinion, it's a free world.

Just the same in the car world, the vintage Bentley boys drive their cars to the full (most of them, anyway), eg a little tour to Turkey, driving all they way, of course. Most new Ferraris sit in air-con garages, get over-polished and driven to and fro at 15mph at the week-end in front of blingistes sitting at pavement cafes. Or is that just where I live.

[andybarton]

Do they have their Nocti boxes on the passenger seat, Pete?

Just wondering...

[rob_x2004]

Because they're superb pieces of machinery

What?

[lct]

Do photographers despise collectors because they feel artistically superior or financially inferior? Just curious.

[luigi bertolotti]

Originally Posted by lct

Do photographers despise collectors because they feel artistically superior or financially inferior? Just curious.

Both cases, depending on individuals... ...happened to me to observe similar moods in the classic auto world...rich people (famed as poor drivers) owning fantastic old Ferraris...

[masjah]

If Leica want to earn a very fast buck by getting very rich people to pay a lot of money (and which doesn't really do any harm - after all they are not selling arms to Mugabe or the Burmese military) then good luck to them. They need every cent they can get, and I don't want to see them go under. For photographers rather than collectors there'll be a new 50 f/1 M lens very soon anyway.

[razerx]

If Leica had priced this set for half as much the dealers would mark it up anyway like some of them are selling the regular edition for US$10k. Now that's disgusting.

[Speenth]

Originally Posted by elansprint72

Most new Ferraris ... get over-polished and driven to and fro at 15mph at the week-end in front of blingistes sitting at pavement cafes. Or is that just where I live.

I thought in Utterly Oop North they only drove tractors n' old Landys. Ee by gum Mother, times change.

[darkstar2004]

I am not disgusted with Leica collectors - I think we are all camera collectors at one level or another.

What disgusts me is the price tag Leica has chosen to slap on the last 100 Noctiluxes.

These lenses are out of reach to all but "The Rich And Fabulous" (tm). Real honset-to-god imagemakers will never own them, unless they happen to inherit gobs of money or have a wealthy grandma that takes pity on them and buys them one as a birthday gift.

A Noctilux that sells for $6000 American is magically "transformed" into a $16,000 fetish for the fabulously wealthy by the addition of a nice box and a hardbacked manual; that's just arrogant and obnoxiuos in my book.

Whatever, Leica. Thanks sooooooo much for thinking of the little man and real imagemakers. You are treading dangerously close to "prick" territory...

[Daniel Ortego]

Funny how things change over the course of life. I use to watch my father as he collected stamps and coins. I didn't realize at the time although I now understand that he was simply bored. As I develop, I have less and less desire to hold on to intrinsic articles as collectables. When I hear someone tell me "it has a life-time warranty" I sorta get sick to my stomach. Today, anything I have only has to last about 20-years or so.
Regards,

[andybarton]

That's just because you're getting old, Daniel

Do you not have any desire to pass on your stuff to your family or friends or dogs' home when the time comes for you to be returned to base for the ultimate CLA?

I do, as I'll have no further use for them, and if someone else can get some pleasure out of my cameras and other bits of junk then that's good. If they want to sell them, that's fine with me too.

[bill]

Originally Posted by andybarton

returned to base for the ultimate CLA?

Love it

Me, I regard myself as a custodian of my Leica kit. It will outlast me, as it has outlasted others. In the meantime I shall use it to the fullest, otherwise it will sulk.

Regards.

Bill

[bill]

Originally Posted by darkstar2004

I am not disgusted with Leica collectors - I think we are all camera collectors at one level or another.

What disgusts me is the price tag Leica has chosen to slap on the last 100 Noctiluxes.

These lenses are out of reach to all but "The Rich And Fabulous" (tm). Real honset-to-god imagemakers will never own them, unless they happen to inherit gobs of money or have a wealthy grandma that takes pity on them and buys them one as a birthday gift.

A Noctilux that sells for $6000 American is magically "transformed" into a $16,000 fetish for the fabulously wealthy by the addition of a nice box and a hardbacked manual; that's just arrogant and obnoxiuos in my book.

Whatever, Leica. Thanks sooooooo much for thinking of the little man and real imagemakers. You are treading dangerously close to "prick" territory...

Why are so many people getting hot under the collar about this? It's economics.

Regards.

Bill

[razerx]

The Noctilux had been available for 30 years and was always a slow seller. Only a few years ago a used one can be had for around $1400 and a new one around $2000. If you missed your chance when it was affordable then don't blame Leica.

[Speenth]

Originally Posted by bill

Why are so many people getting hot under the collar about this? It's economics.

Regards.

Bill

No. Its offensive, tasteless product placement.

We who are passionate about photography and technical excellence, but not quite up to buying Chelsea Football Club just yet, are the future of Leica. However, promotions such as this send the message that we're not the kind of customer Leica values (even though we're loyal to the brand for all the right reasons and there are many more of us than there are wealthy oligarchs).

Recently Leica quietly offered the first production M8 to the Westlicht Gallery in Vienna to be auctioned, proceeds to charity. Hardly a peep was heard about this and a great promotional opportunity was missed. Through this auction Leica could have promoted worldwide, the excellence of its first digital product. It could have demonstrated the esteem the M8 already engenders in the minds of the discerning photography community (evidence being the high reserve set and the high price realised at auction). Through this auction the opportunity arose to show that Leica is a caring and proud company, in tune with its customers and generous in its actions.

Best of all, this auction offered the basis for a campaign aimed at a new, more youthful audience. For sure, a well-off youthful audience, but with a different outlook on life. This new generation would value a new, philanthropic attitude from a formerly stuffy old company. But, when they see Leica-bling promoted in handmade cigar boxes they see the old elitism reinforced ... I know, I asked my nephews, already talented photographers and already, aggressively dismissive of Leica.

I truly don't care about the lens in a humidor. I care about the mindset at Leica that thinks this is a good way to promote the Leica brand in the 21st Century.

[bill]

Originally Posted by Speenth

No. Its offensive, tasteless product placement.

It's business.

I wouldn't buy one, but then I am not in the target demographic. And neither are you, or your nephews. None of us will be buying a Maybach either, I'll wager, but I'm not jumping up and down calling Mercedes names for bringing it out.

And I think you will find that it's a dehumidifier, not a humidor. The box alone accounts for nearly 40% of the price.

Regards,

Bill