Paris - 'The One Challenge' - reminder

[stunsworth]

Just a brief reminder that this year's 'challenge' is in Paris on the 7th of October. More information and rules here...

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/for...006-paris.html

The more the merrier as they say, so if you can make it please come along. Remember this is a low pressure event, it's as much about meeting people that you may only have met on the forum as it is photo competition. I'm sure everyone would agree that they enjoyed the experience on the last two occasions.

The last two year's winners have donated their prizes to charity, so someone has benifited from the exercise.

[leica_mage]

Steve, on the other thread you said:

Ok, I've been thinking about the rules and am going to make a minor change.

When the photographs are posted for review I will not include any details of camera/lens etc. I'll do that at the end when the photographers are named. By doing so the photographs will be only be able to be judged on their own merits without the name of the camera/lens providing any possible influence.

Would you also consider changing this rule? (no. 5c):

'Scan that image. NB. Digital manipulation of the image is restricted to cropping/resizing and use of levels, hue/saturation or similar to improve colour rendition and/or contrast. Dodging, burning, desaturation, toning and tinting are also allowed. Addition or subtraction of image elements (people, sky, etc) are NOT allowed.'

Just as addition or subtraction of elements is - very rightly so - not allowed, I feel that cropping / resizing should also not be allowed. One is declaring one particular lens. Cropping / resizing changes that; it may not change the perspective, DOF, etc., but it means that you are not posting what you shot. It is a form of adding / subtracting that goes far beyond dodging and burning, etc. Please consider re-writing the rule.

[stunsworth]

I understand you point K.P. and I think it's well made. I don't think it would be in the spirit of the competition to shoot with a 21mm and then crop to a 90mm view :-), the only issue I have is that to change the rule would then only allow full frame shots and disallow minor crops and crops to images that didn't fit the 3x2 or 4x3 ratios.

As you can probably tell I'm undecided and dithering on this :-). One the one hand I think your suggestion fits in with the ethos of what the competition is about, on the other I don't want to remove the possibility of minor cropping by the photographer.

Does anyone else have any views?

[pascal_meheut]

I agree with Steve. Some minor cropping should be authorized. I do some always because the scan is not a perfect rectangle, because the M and even the DMR viewfinders are not 100% correct...

If someone wants to cheat by declaring a 21mm and crop to a 90mm, I think we will detect it on the pictures :-)

[bill]

Since I wrote the rule in the first place I feel qualified to comment. The objective was not to stop minor cropping and correction of verticals, it was to prevent, for want of a better word, "changing the focal length" by major surgery.

I think the rule is fine as it stands. This is supposed to be FUN. The more onerous the rules, the less fun it is.

Regards,

Bill

[leica_mage]

Originally Posted by pascal_meheut

I agree with Steve. Some minor cropping should be authorized. I do some always because the scan is not a perfect rectangle, because the M and even the DMR viewfinders are not 100% correct...

Maybe we should define the limit of cropping permitted on a 10cm x 15cm "print" as being 4mm off the 15cm (therefore in realitycropping material from the shorter sides), but also state that cropping must conserve the proportions of the 35mm format. Therefore if you crop 4mm on that side, you will have to crop 2.6mm with respect to the short side (this crop example works out to 2.6666666 ad infinitum per cent - one could rationalise it to 2.5% or thereabouts - just enough to compensate for framing errors due to the viewfinder itself).

[erl]

Frankly, I find such pedantry ridiculous! There has always been a difference of view wrt cropping or not to crop. It is one of the elements that allows photographers their personal expression. I have personal views, that I vary as it suits the subject, but do not enforce for the sake of 'a rule.' Frankly, I will participate, if I choose to crop I will and happily disclose the extent and trust the reason will be obvious and in the interest of the image. The means is only a tool to achieve an end.

Bring it on, enjoy the shoot and relax your mind. Shoot your way; I'll shoot mine.

No offence intended, but I think too many straight jackets are counter productive.

Cheers,
Erl

[leica_mage]

Originally Posted by erl

Frankly, I find such pedantry ridiculous!

Would someone please take some time to explain to me why people are so inclined to insult fellow-posters on forums, this one included.

I have never posted anything where I characterise other people in this way. My motives for posting about the cropping are entirely bona fide and driven by good faith.

Why, pray tell, do you find the impulse to insult a fellow-poster who means absolutely whatsoever no ill in this fashion???

Why do you need to characterise and insult in this fashion?

Did I insult Steve when I made my suggestion, the elaborated on it??

If I'm wrong - and I, as anyone else, may be wrong, at any point - why can you not point it out in a constructive manner?

Why do you have to resort to such nouns and adjectives?? 'Pedantry'. 'Ridiculous'.

Please, I appeal to fellow-Leicaphiles here. This is bordering on the absurd.

I raised a point, and Steve - with whom I don't exactly share the same opinions on a variety of things - had the gentlemanly decency to acknowledge a certain merit in my observations.

Why do you have to come a long and call me a pedant, and qualify my 'pedantry' as 'ridiculous'?

Would you mind being more courteous?

What is 'ridiculous' is that the internet seems to be spawning far more antagonism than broad-minded discussion.

I'm sorry, but that is a pity indeed.

[andybarton]

It's not an insult, it's an expression of an opinion that to require no more than 2.5% cropping on a short edge, otherwise a shot is invalid is a bit too restrictive. How would one know? How can one judge when an image has been scanned? Would you need to see the mount frame around the edge of the shot, or even the "Kodak Tri-X" writing on the edge of the film?

Come on. We are all grown ups here.

As Bill said, it's supposed to be fun. The rules are there. If you choose to participate and bend the rules to suit yourself, it's only you that's being cheated. If you can't post your best shot of the day without bending the rules, then it's probably best not to declare at all.

There is also the element of trust with digital shooters. No one goes and checks the file numbers before and after the shoot to see that no one has taken 41 shots...

I am quite happy with the rules as they stand. A little cropping just to "tidy edges" seems perfectly reasonable to me. Wholesale cropping to create a different shot isn't.

I look forward to being able to continue such debates with you K.P. in October over a cup or glass of something

[leica_mage]

Originally Posted by andybarton

[...] I look forward to being able to continue such debates with you K.P. in October over a cup or glass of something

I, too - prefereably glass after 12 o'clock noon...

But it was an insult. You don't go around describing fellow-Leica forum users as perpetrators of ridisulous pedantry. There are more civil ways to disagree. Permit me to insist on that one. We're not chums in a boarding school here.

[masjah]

I agree, let's be reasonably free and easy about cropping. I can think of at least one legitimate reason for very substantial cropping that does not violate the spirit of one focal length - suppose for example you "see" an image which works in a "letter-box" or other non-standard format - then you've got a heavy crop and still the requirement for the originally employed focal length lens. (Another reason is the apalling property of Fontierlab machines not to print full frame, so you've got to frame loosely, and crop if you've overdone it. Maybe I should shoot slides and get a scanner!)

Yes indeed, let's keep it free, easy and fun.

[stunsworth]

Ok, I've been out, taken some Leicon (or was it Caneica?) plastic shots at Tatton and thought about this. I've decided, as in previous years cropping is allowed, but I would ask that participants stay within the spirit of the challenge and do not crop in such a way as to 'imitate' a different focal length than the one used. As Bill quite rightly said this is as much about being sociable and having fun as it is competative.

I think the view expressed byK.P. is valid, but I don't want to get into a situation where we are counting pixels to determine is someone has exceeded a preset cropping 'quota'. I'd also point out in fairness to the competitors that over cropping has not been an issue as far as I am aware in previous years. If the organisor of the next challenge feels differently, so be it.

I'd also point out that in two hours wandering around central Paris you are likely to take more than one roll of film or more than the permitted number of digitlal shots. I have no problem with that, just make sure that the image submitted it from the first roll. Again this is taken on trust.

[michiel_fokkema]

Hi Steve,

I'm planning to come also but you never know what can come in the way. In the end it is only a 4 hour ride for me.
Hope to see you all.

Cheers,

Michiel Fokkema

[wbesz]

Perhaps I will come next year (or the year after), but my observation is that for a fun activity such as this, restrictions/rules should be minimal.

Some, photographers are of the creative kind, and too many restrictions are damaging to the results.

(Perhaps a drink or two could be helpful before the shoot and rules discussion?)

[stunsworth]

William, the only practical rules are that you use a Leica lens and/or body, and you submit an image from a single roll of film - or digital equivalent. As Bill has said, the idea from the outset was that it was to be fun. For me the get together and the chance to put faces to names has been as important, if not more so, that the actual contest.

If we were to descend into a swathe of strict rules I for one would lose interest.

If you were ever to make the trip to Europe _purely_ in order to enter I think we would all have to stand you a drink ;-)

[wbesz]

Fully agree with you Steve, ..social and fun it should be.

[erl]

Wow! The things that can happen while one sleeps.

K.P. you seem to have taken great exception to my earlier remarks. I can only observe that you have grossly missunderstood my intent. Possibly I also misunderstood your remarks initially, but I don't believe so.

In using the the word 'pedandtry' I believe it is the correct word for my intent, but NOT an insult. My use of the word 'ridiculous', at least in my culture, is not an insult. Further, my last line of comment spefically states

" No offence intended, but I think too many straight jackets are counter productive. "

I think that is as clear as I can be about disagreeing with your proposal and ensuring that I did not intend offense.

I believe in artistic freedom to "shape" an image to suit the image rather than suit the medium is a basic right and will not surrender it. Howver, other that prefer to adhere to numerical formulas are more than free to so do.

So, K.P., please be not offended by my position, as I am not by yours and consider that if and when we meet in Paris we shall enjoy a mug or two and expression will be free and relaxed. That way neither of us shall come a cropper.


Cheers,
Erl

[leica_mage]

Originally Posted by erl

[...] So, K.P., please be not offended by my position, as I am not by yours and consider that if and when we meet in Paris we shall enjoy a mug or two and expression will be free and relaxed. That way neither of us shall come a cropper.

Erl: Point fully taken, and we shall indeed enjoy a couple of pints in Paris, if and when we meet there.

[robert_parker]

What's the position regarding the use of Zoom lenses in the competition (apologies if this is in the rules but I've missed it)

ps. Can't see what the problem is with cropping anyway - it's as valid a form of image adjustment as any other