Old school (M4) or new school (M240)?

[mdg1371]

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I've slid into a creative morass for the last few months, feel like shaking things up a bit.

 

I've been shooting a sony a7r with M mount lenses, and for the last few years have been printing larger and larger- 30x40ish, but I am now of course running into the lack of wall space that usually accompanies large prints!

 

I've thought of two options to shake things up (in addition to trying a few new projects):

 

1. Go hard core old school-- pick up an M4-- no automation, no meter-- run with B&W film, and scan with my Minolta 5400 scanner.

 

2. Go new school, pick up an M240 and EVF.

 

My initial thought was to avoid the expenditure of the M240 and depreciation that would follow. After crunching the numbers however, the depreciation suffered my the M240 would be roughly equivalent over 3-4 years to the costs of film and self processing averaging 2 rolls per week, without accounting for time scanning.

 

I have experience with both film M bodies and digital, to the learning curve would be pretty minimal either way.

 

 

Any input, opinion, suggestion, or comments appreciated!

[bocaburger]

I've slid into a creative morass for the last few months

 

Sounds like you need a new set of tires, not a new camera

 

 

But seriously, as the owner of both (M4 and M240) who hasn't used the former in several years, I've really given up on film, because as you point out, the cost is basically a wash even without figuring in the cost of your time to do the processing and scanning. Me I'd rather spend that time taking more pics, but then, I was never enthralled with the darkroom side of photography. At this point though, the prices of M4's are holding steady and the M240 is dropping, so it seems viable to get an M4 and give that a whirl first. If you decide it's not shaking things up for you in a few months, you can sell it on at no loss, then buy an M240 for less than it would cost today.

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[250swb]

The main thing is that you have some new projects planned, that is the best way to get out of a malaise. And it's always a good idea to decide how you would like the images to appear, at least to start with, things can evolve.

 

So I don't think an artistic choice should be compromised by cost and value for money. You only get one chance at some things, some projects cost a lot, some hardly cost anything, it tends to even out if taken over a few decades. What do you do for instance if you drive 100 miles and come home with nothing that is usable, stay at home from then on, of course not. But bean counting shouldn't spoil a project if you have generally enough money to have a choice, and it sounds like you do.

 

So strip it all back, forget about money, and time, think about the characteristics you want in the image because they are the exciting things. A good day out using film should override the time spent processing and scanning it in expectation and excitement, a good day out with digital should override any negative thoughts about money and 'investment'. And remember, the hit rate, the number of successful images, is usually about the same between film and digital if you are a good editor. So overall at the end of a film project is it really worth worrying if the whole thing took 40 hours longer to achieve than digital, or if a digital project was simply quicker, that shouldn't be how your work is remembered.

 

Steve

[mfunnell]

My personal view (and one of my main reasons for buying an M type 240) is that life is too short to spend my time spotting dust from my scans. Sure, sometimes, it's worth it for the purist pursuit of film in an M (really, I do find it so, and I still like and prefer B&W film for some things) but for general-purpose shooting, not so much any more.

 

This is partly because I'm time-limited and partly because (for travel and other reasons) developing and scanning are more difficult for me these days. I might think differently if I'd been unable to afford a digital M (and I was unable to do that until I received an unexpected and generous bequest). I had found myself shooting my rangefinder cameras less and less frequently because of some inconvenience developing and scanning film but, even more so, the knowledge that I'd have to spend way too much time spotting the dust which I've always found inevitable - even in better developing and scanning circumstances.

 

I'd got to the point where I'd rather forgotten how much I like using rangefinders until my fortuitous ability to buy an M type 240. I've had rather a blast with it since it arrived, and taken many more photos than I might if I had to think how much time I'd need to spend with the healing brush and clone-stamp tool for each printed (film) frame. My DSLRs have had rather fewer outings since my digital M arrived.

 

...Mike

[TomB_tx]

Well, I've set up a darkroom again after 20 years, and am back to B&W processing and enlarging and printing instead of scanning. Also back to bulk loading film to reduce costs. Using all my film Ms, but also often IIIf and IIIg. Having a blast.

But all the same I've been enjoying an A7 body with my collection of old manual lenses (mostly SLR) when I want digital, and also use an M9.

Each process has its charms and rewards.

[spydrxx]

Personally, I keep putting my film gear in the back and relying more heavily on the digital gear. I'd love to have an M240, and I'd probably retire all my film gear. But seriously, if you can afford the M240, you can probably afford to pick up a good M4 as well, and have the best of both worlds. The M4 was my companion for 44 years, even though I also owned several SLRs during that period. About a year after selling it, I decided to get an M2 to fill the gap. Whatever your choice, I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

[Guest Benqui]

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I agree with spydrxx. Why not using both worlds? I take most of my b/w photos analog with my MP and the feeling in the darkrom when you have your own print in your hands. This is really a special feeling which you do not have in digital photography. But on the other hand if you need fast results or try different ways to take the photo (different positions, angles, lights....)digital photography is really a very good tool. And especially in b/w photography digital as well as analog has its special look. And not to forget you can use your lenses for both.

To conclude in my opinion, go both ways

Best regards

Marc

Edited August 28, 2014 by Benqui

[otto.f]

If you are going to scan that much in 3-4 years here is my story: one my last pushes to change to digital M was the fact that my Minolta5400 got stuck; irrepairable because the brand did not exist anymore. Sony was said to have taken it over but unreachable for this problem.

Which does not mean that I still miss my M4 now and then because it was so sturdy, simple and straightforward. I used it with a Gossen Digisix, small and lightweight, no fuss.

[sblitz]

You don't have to develop and scan on your own, depending on where you live -- there are a number of places in NYC where turnaround is 24 hours. i use my m4 and m9 together and enjoy both worlds. Push comes to shove, i prefer film but then again this is for my hobby not a living. As was written, if you can afford an m240 then the extra $1200 for an M4 shouldn't be an issue (btw, 3 yrs ago I got my M4 for $900 and I have noticed that M4's no longer trade at a discount to M6s).

[250swb]

If you are going to scan that much in 3-4 years here is my story: one my last pushes to change to digital M was the fact that my Minolta5400 got stuck; irrepairable because the brand did not exist anymore.

 

Nothing lasts forever, but can easily go back to scanning now with the Plustek or Reflecta scanners, so you don't really have an excuse.

 

Steve

[pico]

Get the best of both worlds in one camera: A mint black enamel M4 with black 50mm Summicron for the price of an M240.

[philipus]

Everybody is different but gear doesn't fuel or improve my creativity. In your situation I would have focused on the new projects instead, by intellectually analysing what your objectives with them are, by studying other photographers' (similar or not) projects, discussing with other people to question your own perception of the projects etc.

 

That said, if you believe you would benefit from new equipment, then, in your situation, I would have gone outside my comfort zone. For instance, get a Barnack and a few lenses (or just one) or go MF using some suitable system.

 

But like I said, I would have persevered by focusing on my projects.

 

Philip

[thighslapper]

Well I suppose I could start cycling to work on a penny-farthing and have candles at home for lighting ........

 

Unless you actively enjoy the process of developing film and doing your own enlarging, I really can't see the point of 'hard core Old School' .....

 

You can emulate everything a film camera can do ..... colour and B&W ..... with a 240..... and your M series lenses will feel more at home .....

 

Why not consider a B&W only MM instead ???

 

You can get the 'M240 experience' by disabling all the auto functions on the A7r ...... and if you put gaffer tape over the screen you have an M4 as well .....

 

If you are going to worry about depreciation then photography is the wrong game for you .......

Edited August 31, 2014 by thighslapper

[pico]

[with digital] You can emulate everything a film camera can do.

 

No you cannot. If you remove the bottom plate of a digital M in the middle of a card you entirely miss the experience film users enjoy so much. It is also impossible to miswind a digital, not to mention the heathy benefit of rewinding.

[plasticman]

Well I suppose I could start cycling to work on a penny-farthing and have candles at home for lighting ..

 

The trouble with your analogy is that neither of these examples represent a mature technology giving much better results than are possible with newer versions in their respective fields. So you'll find it's not relevant to this discussion.

[250swb]

 

Unless you actively enjoy the process of developing film and doing your own enlarging, I really can't see the point of 'hard core Old School' .....

 

..

 

It's not seen as 'hard core' if you've been doing it all your photographic life, it's a walk in the park really.

 

Not wanting to make it a film vs digital debate (again) if you are using film for an aesthetic reason, maybe you want to interpret a subject and not simply copy it, film becomes an organic language, and not something to generate facsimiles. And the point is that this language is used at the time of making the exposure as much as every other stage of the process, whereas the digital emulation of film is used at the end stage. And I think many would argue that being so involved early on, choosing film, thinking about filters, thinking what developer will be used, is/can be, a motivator in clarifying the vision.

 

As an analogy it's like poetry written in another language. Despite scholars making excellent translations into English, the true power of the poem can only be fully realised in the original language because that itself is the impetus for the poems creation.

 

Steve

[jaapv]

The trouble with your analogy is that neither of these examples represent a mature technology giving much better results than are possible with newer versions in their respective fields. So you'll find it's not relevant to this discussion.

 

:confused:Since when are candles not a mature technology? And they give MUCH better results in my Christmas tree than electric lights (which I detest)

[pop]

:confused:Since when are candles not a mature technology? And they give MUCH better results in my Christmas tree than electric lights (which I detest)

 

They are much better at attracting fire brigades as well.

[mdg1371]

Solved the quandry.

 

I found a 1969 M4, that the original owner used to shoot a couple rolls of film , put back in the Leitz plastic bag, then back into the box with instruction manual, warranty card (unfilled), and Leitz literature, then placed in storage until now. Mint condition, its on its way to Youxin Ye for a CLA.

 

ALSO, I picked up a chrome, QM2 M240 from Popflash. My only self restriction was that I could spend no out-of-pocket funds... so off to forums and auction site with little used gear, misc debris from junk drawers, etc!

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[pico]

Deleted

Edited September 19, 2014 by pico