What is Leica doing to attract ...

[chrisweeks]

the next generation of M-shooters?

I've always wondered. I mean ... I'm "close to 40" ... being in Los Angeles ... we just don't admit our age.

It would seem, though, that Leica only caters to a significantly older crowd.

Won't they need a younger customer base to insure their survival?

Of the "older Leica customer base" what do you guys do to help younger photographers discover the beauty of Leica glass?

If you say, "oh we have the digital-m coming out," I don't know many of the kids in PJ school nor assisting who are going to be able to afford that.

Just wondering...

[phybron]

So if young people in school or assisting can't afford M's then how can Leica attract any sizable section of the younger market? For the believers Leica's are a cut above the Japanese manufacturers (generally speaking) and that means we can justify the higher prices. So that means they should appeal to the photojournalist trainees and assistants more than the casual shooters, but they can't afford them.

Seems to me Leica can't have it both ways. Well having said that I think the Digilux's fell nicely into the middle ground. My D2 was my first digital camera which I bought last year aged 27, having looked at everything on the market and settling on that as something unique but decent quality. Other than the Panasonic equivalent I still don't think there's anything like it and it's enabled me to get into and teach myself photography.

A digital M would be a nice progression from that but it'll be a long while before I can afford that.

EDIT: oh and I always recommend people (my age group) get Panasonics when they ask me what digicam to buy, if only for the Leica lens. Misguided? Panasonic lens with a Leica stamp on it? Maybe, but I'm sure it counts for more than pixel counts.

[salvatore]

I am 30 years and I cannot afford the MD or M8, but I am ready to jump to Leica if they present a new Leica CMd or CLd. Digiluxes are panasonics and with this cameras I prefer continue with my D200.

[martinb]

Just have a question. Could young people afford Leica bodies and lenses 20 years ago? Did you have a Leica when you was 20, Chris?
But hey, I'm hooked on Leica and I'm 21. But I think that Leica have turned out to be more luxury items than back in the day.
Unfortunately the price gap between Leica and other gear is growing bigger. Especially the lens prices which is the biggest investment.

[earleygallery]

Well, I bought my first Leica when I was 17, in the early 80's. It was a lllf red dial which I still own and use regularly.

Younger photographers should be able to afford an LTM camera today. Or, for that matter, one of the older reflex cameras.

The digicams aren't overly expensive so there are many ways into Leica ownership. However, I don't think that Leica need to target products at 'young' buyers. Anyone really interested in photography will know about Leica and their reputation. They will aspire to owning some Leica equipment (as I did).

[martinb]

95% of young people want digital cameras. That's the issue. There are no good used Leica digital cameras available for reasonable prices.

[ed_oneal]

Being involved in presenting concerts of classical chamber music, this thread seems very familiar. Periodically, whenever we get new members on the board of our organization, someone begins to worry that our audience is graying and we need to do something about getting younger people involved. The same arguments are presented: 1. Young people are too busy. 2. Young people don't have enough money, etc. However, over the 20 years that I've been with the organization, our numbers have been stable because as older people pass on, they are replaced by the young ones moving up through the ranks. As the younger people advance in their jobs they become more affluent and thus able to afford the things they crave. It's a natural progression. As long as Leica continues to present quality products, there will be people willing and able to buy them.

[kdemas]

It might be nice to put together some promotional offerings for those in Photos schools whereby certified students can get M's at prices close to cost. Think scholastic software discounts (my company does a ton).

You basically fund (in opportunity costs only) a new generation of interest to ensure a future base. Toyota for years has used a similar strategy when entering a market to gain market share. That said, the "pro's and con's" of rangefinder photography would have to be introduced in some class curriculum for it ever to take off.

Hopefully Leica will adopt some strategic programs of this type at some point to infuse some younger blood into the customer base. Maybe they can fund, in a limited way, a "masters tour" of some notable rangefinder photographers to appear at major art and photography schools

Chris- Even though I'm in Nor-Cal I use a nice general "around 40" descriptor myself

Kent

[salvatore]

My limit is 3000€ a kit of a body + 1-2 lenses + cards. Perhaps Zeiss could bring us a Zeiss Ikon D at a reasonable price (around 2000€) and we could use Zeiss, cosina voight and Leica lenses in a cheaper body.

[stnami]

"It might be nice to put together some promotional offerings for those in Photos schools whereby certified students can get M's at prices close to cost." These are not the only young people involved in photography, there are many young freelancers on the breadline. Crunchtime for the young is when they leave the safe halls of education, party time, worktime, eventually a house, a car, a child etc. all these cost.
There is no shortage of people interested in photography or Leica. it spans all ages and they keep on rolling by. Porsche doesn't subsidise young drivers with cheaper prices in order to keep its product alive!
In art school I bought materials and equipment many times before food, no luxuries, went out less, had no car, less holidays away took a extra job to buy a Leica. Even to this day my cameras cost more than my car, it is about choice


better still............ cheap Leicas and lense for all

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by salvatore

I am 30 years and I cannot afford the MD or M8, but I am ready to jump to Leica if they present a new Leica CMd or CLd. Digiluxes are panasonics and with this cameras I prefer continue with my D200.

You are absolutely right with Panasonic, but the issue is that Leica will not be able to build any new camera just on their own which comes near to the price tag of a D200. So their only way is to go via Panasonic in this segment and try to add as much features (firmware) as possible to be somehow different.

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by salvatore

My limit is 3000€ a kit of a body + 1-2 lenses + cards. Perhaps Zeiss could bring us a Zeiss Ikon D at a reasonable price (around 2000€) and we could use Zeiss, cosina voight and Leica lenses in a cheaper body.

I am not sure if Zeiss/Cosina will go for a ZID, they always said that they would not. but I belive that they are just waiting for the MD to appear and then learn what they could do different and of course cheaper with almost sdame quality.

What will happen (often discussed in the old forum) is then that as soon as another digital rangefinder with M mount is out in the 10-12MP area for half of the price as the MD a lot of customers would go for that, especiallgy iven the fact that digital camera models will be replaced all 2-3 years. Also for me, who is a Leica fan and likes M cameras, this wuld be a reasonable work around. But bad for Leica.

[salvatore]

If Zeiss bring us the right body at the right price for the M lenses might be something good for leica, they are going to sell more lenses.

[chrisweeks]

@martin:

i think you nailed it. most of "the kids" i know ... want digital ...

and "real leica digital" appears to be way out of their range...

i was thinking, though, that if they did perhaps want film ...

leica could do some "certified pre-owned" type program...

dunno ... just a thought.

[dugby]

Well after 30 years of satisfying film experience, and up to two years ago, 3 years of dissatisfied digicam experience, I bought a D2.

I must say the D2 has revitalised my interest in digital so much so that I went out and bought a D1 (actually Panasonic LC5) for my teenage children to 'learn' photography with.

At first they thought it was an old fashioned toy pretending to be 'modern' they are now starting to see the results of of some basic principles of photography.

My biggest gripe has been "taking photos with out-stretched arms" and the associated camera shake causing image blurr. I want them to learn about having the camera as steady as possible, in using the Optical View finder.

Once they learnt the basics, I expect in 10-20 years my children will be apreciative of the M philisophy. But it will be "long learning journey"..... before they will see.....and become digital M-users.

In our family, we've now got over the 'hump' of bad quality digital images, now they are starting to take more artistic photos, and I can see they are starting to eye my D2......which may infact be the first step toward a DM in our household.

So have I answered the main question of this thread......

[brunom]

Chris

What you suggest probably is correct, but don't forget that growing older is a continuous thing, so there always will be new oldies turning up - God forbid all those youngsters [now] are day by day getting old[er].

Quality will always count for something, [ life is not always about getting something for nothing or getting the best deal possible, at all costs ], and Leica does not need to fight Nikon or Canon etc to survive.

Hopefully what they are doing will help them carry on .

Bruno

[waileong]

Nothing. That is the problem. But on the other hand, what does Patek Philippe or (insert other equally expensive brand) do to attract young buyers? They don't target 'em by age, they do it by wealth. If you're Paris Hilton and can afford expensive stuff, they'll be more than happy to serve you.

Luxury watch makers advertise in high society magazines. Perhaps Leica can do the same too.

Originally Posted by chrisweeks

the next generation of M-shooters?

I've always wondered. I mean ... I'm "close to 40" ... being in Los Angeles ... we just don't admit our age.

It would seem, though, that Leica only caters to a significantly older crowd.

Won't they need a younger customer base to insure their survival?

Of the "older Leica customer base" what do you guys do to help younger photographers discover the beauty of Leica glass?

If you say, "oh we have the digital-m coming out," I don't know many of the kids in PJ school nor assisting who are going to be able to afford that.

Just wondering...

[hm1912]

Is Leica a luxury brand or a photographic tool or both?

As someone under 30 I know a few people of similar age who would love to get a Leica but can't afford it, some find it to be a snobby camera for uppity rich older people, and some don't know much about it. A significant number of my friends would prefer the digital route to film. None of us, myself included, can afford a new Leica. But then again, I don't think that Leica really cares about any of us since our incomes are too low. No student, unless he or she is from a wealthy family or has a plethora of financial awards will ever be able to afford a new Leica. I doubt a student discount would ever be significant enough to make a difference -- did that sentence hurt to write! If I was a photography student, I probably wouldn't buy a new camera, anway, and would go for the used Leica route -- which can be a good way into the world of Leica cameras.

Leica's are expensive and that is just the way it is. The one thing that does seem unfortunate is that I hear (from people in this forum) that Leicas are also priced out of reach of most professional photographers. To me, that seems to be a real shame.

[pierovitch]

Attach it to a phone and sell it on a 24 month capped plan.

I have been using Leicas for over 30 years. Sometimes the best tools are worth the price and nothing to do with age.

Cheers Pierre

[earleygallery]

I think perhaps Leica have seen themselves as a luxury brand in recent years. The comparison with hand made Swiss watches is a fair one. When I first got into Leica in the early 80's they were the premium 35mm camera - one to choose if you wanted a well made durable product.

I remember reading all the letters to the AP, the debates raging about whether these auto exposure/multi mode cameras would ever catch on, who wants electronic shutters, and the gimmicks like 'focus confirmation' and even talk of auto focus SLR's!! None of these were for 'serious' photographers (blimey I sound like some old fogey).